Author Topic: Whats it worth?  (Read 19427 times)

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2012, 02:38:48 PM »
Don is right about that rifle. Take the barrel and maybe the lock which is not one made by Bill Large or myself and the triggers and restock it. I like the English style shotgun butt plates which bring me to my next subject,a modern muzzle loader. In 1987 when the now late Don Brown showed for the first time his replica Alex Henry sporting/target rifle with the pistol grip,checkered stock he was criticized for making a "modern"muzzle loader by people who had no idea what they were looking at. He then opened a case laying on the display table and lo and behold,a fine original Alex Henry complete with pistol grip,fine sights and all the bells,horns and whistles associated with such a rifle. Don said that those who knew about such a rifle were exactly that,those who knew and he wasn't worried about the rest and besides that,the gun nor the components weren't aimed at a distressed market. I bought several of his superb breech plugs at $85 a piece and was glad to have them.
Newly made doesn't always mean space age design like the afore mentioned in lines or the
(barf)bolt action bastardizations seen now and again.

Bob Roller

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2012, 02:43:16 PM »

Bill

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2012, 05:05:52 PM »
real interesting looking rifle. What type of rear and front peep sights do you have? I think it will be a lot of fun to work up the load, etc for your rifle. The price certainly doesn't seem to have been too out of line either. Enjoy!

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2012, 05:29:47 PM »
Aperture front sights need to be sized for the target being used. With the right front and rear apertures on the right target they are about as good as a scope to 200 yards or so.

The value in the gun is the barrel and maybe the lock and trigger is Roller etc.
Its pretty clumsily stocked. Heavy guns are not required to be ugly but a lot of people made them that way on purpose "pretty rifles don't shoot".
This mantra was common with some in SB and HP competition. Might still be.


Dan
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MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 08:14:26 PM »
Even with out the butt plate it is not much more comfortable. I'll post pictures of the components as I start to break it down. I noticed it has a brass lock plate with engine turning design, internally it looks like it may be an L&R but I can't be certain. 

Daryl

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2012, 08:41:52 PM »
Even with out the butt plate it is not much more comfortable. I'll post pictures of the components as I start to break it down. I noticed it has a brass lock plate with engine turning design, internally it looks like it may be an L&R but I can't be certain. 

Don't ask why- but I put a heavy butt plate exactly like that on a rolling block rifle I had years ago. Since the barrel was 1 1/4" octagonal in .45 cal. the butt increased the weight to about 16 1/2 pounds.  It was uncomfortable to shoot, just as you said yours was, so I cut the top tang off and re-shaped the curvature, along with thinning and re-shaping the lower tang. That made it much more comfortable to shoot and it was then good for around 1 inch groups at 100 yards - same as my open sighted round ball shooting 9 1/2 pound muzzleloader shot at the same time.

Most bench guns are straighter stocked than offhand or hunting-type rifles.  It's the norm and OK as long as you don't get hammered when it goes off.


MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2012, 03:30:43 AM »
This thing weighs 35.8 lbs, I have no concern with lightening it up a bit. Where can I get a .508 mold I couldn't find one on ToTW.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2012, 04:18:42 AM »
If you are shooting the gun off the shoulder you might try shooting it off the arm instead. I think the butt will fit over your arm better than the face of your shoulder. Just a thought.  Smylee

Daryl

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2012, 05:18:37 PM »
The tang fits between your arm and your side.

Too thick a shoulder will cause problems with the angle of the butt plate into the top tang, which is supposed to fit over the top of the shoulder itself.

I'm quite sure he wasn't trying to shoot the gun out of the shoulder's pocket, but due to the leaned over shooting postion, the top tang would be riding down hard on the top of the collar bone, I'd think - that would hurt.

The other DWS

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2012, 06:51:50 PM »
Schuetzen rifles are not butted to the shoulder, instead they butt-hook over the arm above the bicep.  The gun is balanced on the off-hand; with the offhand forearm almost vertical.  Depending on the shooter's body proportion the elbow almost rests on the point of the hip.
 The bulk of the barrel weight is cantilevered out in front of the offhand, levering the schuetzen buttplates lower prong securely up under the arm and into the arm pit.  With proper conditioning and breath control this is a very solid position. Really skilled shooter can shoot 1.5-2 MO 10-shot groups at 200 yards with it in optimum conditions.   Unfortunately I believe that type of hold with the off arm tight and hard against the body is illegal in many ML offhand matches.
   I know there are a very few ML schuetzen matches held at Friendship but do not know if this traditional schuetzen manner of shooting is allowed there or not.

MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2012, 08:11:47 PM »
I shot today about 20 rounds. The first 3 shot group were touching at 100, the next 3 were similar, the next 3 were about double in size and about 2 inches to the right. Then I fell apart trying different holds and cheek placement. I hope to be starting a new stock soon with my wife's permission.

Offline George Sutton

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2012, 10:27:23 PM »
Bill Large contributed  immensely to this sport. I have had some barrels of his that were tack drivers and some that were not so good. I hope you got one of the good one's.

Centershot

Online Bob Roller

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2012, 11:42:18 PM »
Toward the end of his barrel making days,Bill Large had health issues such as high blood pressure which he doctored with home remedies and one day he passed out and tried to catch himself on a rack gear of a running rifling machine and the pinion gear mashed his hand.I knew he had lost a lot of interest when he started drilling and rifling barrels without reaming them and at times seemed to forget the depth of rifling an the cutter kept on working and splines were the result and a dead barrel as well. He did his last job in the shop in August of 1985 when he cut a dovetail for a front sight and on 23 Sept,he passed away with congestive heart failure listed as the cause of death.
I visited him a lot in the last few months of his life and we talked about anything and everything and he seemed to enjoy the wisecracks and jokes. I was in his shop once after he passed away and it was very odd to me because of the silence. His nephew,David gave me the mould for the neat percussion hammer Bill had made up in 1972 and another close friend now has it. I was glad to see Jim McLemore buy all of that machinery and know it's found a good home.
Bill had four daughters and no sons and he treated me like a son and most of the tool making and other shop jobs I do can be credited to what I learned from Bill Large all those years ago.

Bob Roller

MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2012, 02:01:20 AM »
I have always had time to listen to any "Old-timer" that had something to share, I guess that is how traditions are passed on. I used to work for an old guy, Dick Kuthy that owned a bow shop. I worked on bows, made strings and arrows, just about anything that would make him money he would teach me. Dick was an incredible hunter, trapper and target shooter and he would never help anyone learn anything about any of it. He took a wealth of knowledge to the grave with him a couple of months back. Glad to hear they aren't all like that.

MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2012, 02:03:45 AM »
I am new to this "Heavy" shooting, what kind of groups should I expect and to what range with a patch and ball?

chapmans

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2012, 04:57:14 AM »
A heavy bench gun should be able to stack balls of top of each other @ 50 yds and @ 100, to be competitive,  keep them under 1 1/2 inches. What you have to remember is the gun may do it but if you can't read the wind you may never get it to shoot that well for you. It usually takes 50's with a couple of X's to win the bench matches at Friendship @ 50 and 100 yds!
   Steve C.

The other DWS

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2012, 03:50:56 PM »
When it comes to bench shooting "reading conditions" (recognizing, understanding, and learning to work with the constantly changing wind and light conditions) of most ranges seems to be the list and most critical bit of skill that makes the difference between the top 2 or 3 percent of shooters and us "also rans'
  Good equipment, good loads for that good equipment, and good trigger and bench skills may get you rear the top.  I shoot mostly ASSRA, but there are some things in common, and I know that the guys who finish in the top 2 or 3 in the bench matches could take my bench and all my own gear and still hand me my head, simply because of their superior skills at reading the conditions.

In terms of your gun( assuming that it has a good bore, with the right charge/powder/patch/ball combination, good sights for your eyes, etc ) properly set up on a solid bench and shot with good bench technique;   I would expect to get 2 or 3 MOA angle, perhaps better, out to 100 yards.  It might do better farther out as well, but I suspect that much beyond the 100 or 150 yard range the exterior ballistics and aerodynamics of the round ball can make things pretty "interesting"

(Without going back through the thread,  make sure to check the twist,  if it has a slug gun twist, or one that is a bit faster than a standard RB twist it might be worth experimenting with conical slugs of various types.  My .45 cal percussion Schuetzen rifle has a 1/48 twist in a Remington ML barrel and it flat out loves the old Lee "modern minie" slug)

MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2012, 06:45:02 PM »
Well I have a mold on the way,  I shot a little  today the wind was gusting 5 to 25 so I tried to shoot between gusts. I hope to see improvements with the new patch and ball combo. I also found a set of front sight inserts, I figure that will be an improvement as well.



« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:47:37 PM by MeatStick »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2012, 08:57:12 PM »

You need at least one good wind indicator at about 25-30 yards if shooting 50-60. Wind at the target is not important if you have intermediate indicators.


I need to make a couple of these.

Dan
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MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2012, 11:26:49 PM »
Typically for long range "non BP" precision shooting I will have an anemometer and read grass, leaves and limbs for calculations. For under 60 yards with a usual 1/2 value or less wind, I just use the streamer for a value indicator.

Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2012, 06:18:35 PM »
Typically for long range "non BP" precision shooting I will have an anemometer and read grass, leaves and limbs for calculations. For under 60 yards with a usual 1/2 value or less wind, I just use the streamer for a value indicator.

could you say this again in another way? I am still new to the wind stuff.  Do you mean your drift is calcuated for 100 yards and you 1/2 it when shooting at less distance? thx.  Looks like you are now selling the gun? I hope not to pay for a hernia surgery! (I like the heavy guns)

MeatStick

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2012, 02:12:21 AM »
When calculating for wind, it is the angel of the wind. Full value would be straight left or right, 1/4 toward or away would be half value and so on.

Offline JTR

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2012, 07:56:54 PM »
Reading the wind is the art in target shooting!
Sure, you need an accurate load, but if you can't read the wind, you'll never win consistently.
Plus, holding off a good bit and having the shot go smack into the bull is fun, and really satisfying!

John
John Robbins

Daryl

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2012, 12:34:32 AM »
Statisfying it is when you hold correctly for the drift - and splat him - especially at long range on rodents.  Using a flinter or capgun, holding completely off a gopher could easily be required at a mere 40 to 50 yards - especially in windy places.

Offline pathfinder

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Re: Whats it worth?
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 04:51:50 PM »
Wind IS funny! At the Port Huron 200yd silloutte match a "few" years ago,we had a wind quartering from the left at @ 10-15mph,according to guy's who shoot precision,so I held 4',yes,4' above the Bear(at 200yd's),and @ 3' to the left. In my ONLY shinning moment of GLORY,I hit all 4 Bears in the right shoulder,score keepers said it was @ a 2" group. .58cal Hawkin's,.570rb,115grs 3f,pillow tick spit patch,CCI caps.

If I didn't get the advise from "wind expert's",I would NEVER had hit even 1 of the bears!

Another thing on shooting bench gun's, they shoot VERY VERY SLOW! each shot is made with a cold barrel,so 40 shot's in 1 day of shooting is A LOT!! Point of impact seem's to climb up and to the right with each shot. Drop tube's,weighed bullets and load's,ect....too much work for this primitive Longhunter/MountainMan! Still fun to watch though.
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. Itís works!