Author Topic: British Preference? (Read 14033 times)

vtbuck223 · « **on:** April 04, 2012, 07:47:11 PM »

Just an observation and a question. very often when I visit British collecting sites I see original firearms that are bright and shiny without an ounce of patina...etc. Just as often... when an untouched piece is posted and follow up pictures are added....they have wiped them clean. Is it real or just my imagination? Do they have a different preference across the pond? I would have asked the question on their site...but I didn't want to offend

mr. no gold · « **Reply #1 on:** April 04, 2012, 09:05:18 PM »

I believe that they refer to that as 'museum polish' and everyone in those collecting venues seems to do it. From matchlocks, to wheelocks, to flintlocks, in the Tower of London Collection, all are bright and shiny. After awhile you get used to the glare.
Dick

Bill-52 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2012, 09:40:23 PM »

I noticed that when visiting a number of museums and castles in England and Scotland last year. As a result, to me these pieces seem to lack character and appear somewhat sterile. To each his own, I guess...

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #3 on:** April 04, 2012, 10:10:36 PM »

I think this preference even extends into Continental Europe to some degree. I actually find it a little frustrating and disturbing. As a great example, look up the famous late 17th century Monlong pistols in the Royal Armories Collections. They include photos of before and after work had been done. Surfaces had been thoroughly cleaned, corrosion removed, barrels blued etc. Apparently they think nothing of it. I have owned a very good 17th century pistol where this practice was employed to some degree. Seems many Europeans and English have little appreciation for "patina" from what I can see. Sorry if I offend anyone. This certainly doesn't apply to all.

Jim

JV Puleo · « **Reply #4 on:** April 04, 2012, 11:39:09 PM »

One of my friends calls it "European Museum Bright." You could be blinded by the displays in the Musee de la Armee in Paris. It has long been the style, though I think attitudes are changing, at least slightly. One odd, or at least interesting thing is that the English dealers I know who specialize in American arms generally follow American practice but to a large extent that hasn't penetrated beyond their customers...

I once passed on a military wheelock pistol at the London Arms Fair for just that reason. The dealer found it hard to believe he'd have had a sale if he'd just left the !@*%&@ thing alone.

James Rogers · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2012, 11:58:25 PM »

I think much of this practice originates from emulating the look of the better pieces acquired from the gun cabinets of the wealthy manor houses in the first half of the 20th century. Most were maintained in polish from the time they were made.When a piece was found in disrepair and rusty, it was transformed into the new penny to be like the other fine guns. This seems to have continued to this day but in my opinion may be waning a small fraction.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2012, 12:20:22 AM »

Quote from: James Rogers on April 04, 2012, 11:58:25 PM

I think much of this practice originates from emulating the look of the better pieces acquired from the gun cabinets of the wealthy manor houses in the first half of the 20th century. Most were maintained in polish from the time they were made.When a piece was found in disrepair and rusty, it was transformed into the new penny to be like the other fine guns. This seems to have continued to this day but in my opinion may be waning a small fraction.

I agree, the aristocrats who could buy the guns had servants who kept them polished for generations or even centuries I think.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2012, 05:44:01 AM »

Interesting obsevation for me as I just recently purchased a Holland 13 ga. double perc. side by side and it too was in the pollished condition and as far as I know it has resided in the USA for some time. Thanks for pointing out that posible european trend. Smylee

Feltwad · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2012, 08:42:05 AM »

I would say it is not the British Preference, there is good restoration and bad restoration .If a gun is in a very rusty condition where it is often scraped for parts and can be restored but not carried too far then that to me is good.Yes those collections in the top museums look bright and shinny but 99% have not had a hard life with some never been fired and are just the same has new.If you take the private collector you will find that most of his collection still retains the original patina and consist of guns that have shown their age with use
Feltwad

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2012, 02:26:08 PM »

Feltwad,

Check out Peter Finer's website and the guns he shows. I haven't looked lately, but my recalection is that some appear to have been cleaned to the extent that there isn't even any corrosion or patina in the engraving cuts! The site allows the little zoom window, so little details can be seen. As mentioned before, check out the before and after pictures of the Pierre Monlong pistols from the Royal Armories Collection. These can be found online with a search. With all fairness, perhaps this practice was much more common in the past. Certainly hope so.

Jim

Don Getz · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2012, 03:56:47 PM »

Today, it seems most builders do not give the brass a high polish. One year at Dixon's, I was at our table early saturday
morning when a felow came up to the table, held his gun out and said, "I spent four hours polishing this thing last night,
I'm going to really knock their socks off". He was going to enter it into the judging, don't know if he won more than a
"parcipitant" (notice the spelling-Pa. Dutch) ribbon...............Don

Feltwad · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2012, 04:52:55 PM »

Jim I am not disputing what you said about some collections in museums but on the whole it is not a British Preference has I said there is good restoration and bad restoration.I have done restoration for many decades 80% of which would have been scrapped for parts if I can save it for the future then I will but it will not be carried too far, for all restorers there is a golden rule {If in doubt leave it be}..
Feltwad

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2012, 07:05:32 PM »

The odd thing is though, the guns I referenced are at or near the top of the heap in terms of quality and value. I would expect THESE guns to have "good" restoration practices employed. The Pierre Monglong pistols could arguably be considered the finest examples of English gunmaking.

M Tornichio · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2012, 07:26:13 PM »

I just wanted to add a comment. I have often read that these guns were not used over in europe. I always believed it myself. But I have been doing a lot of reading and the more I read, the more I believe that is not the case necessarily. I just listened to a 12 cd book on queen antoinette. Aparently the king was busy hunting most days from morning to dark. He was obviously running from his obligations, but I think the guns were used, they just had servants cleaning them. I have read references of having the engraving touched up to make it look like new. I know that is only one example, but if you get the jaeger book that Jim chambers was selling a few years back. There was an english translation. There are stories in there of the guys shooting 10,000s plus animals. They seemed to keep very good journals of the hunting. I think the difference is in America a long hunter may have been out hunting for a year or two at a time, but he was in the wilderness the entire time. In europe there were hunting castles. At the end of the day you went home and ate a feast and went to bed in your own bed. The servants took care of the guns.
Just an observation that I have noticed while reading historical books.
Marc

debnal · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2012, 07:37:06 PM »

For what it's worth, I got an American made COS musket signed by Medad Hills from a manor house in England. The Earl of the manor fought in the Rev War and this gun was probably a trophy that was brought home. Seems the heirs were selling the arms collection. When it arrived it was in the "European bright" condition. But, being such a rare gun, I kept it. The brass was polished and the stock was heavily cleaned. Oddly enough, the barrel and lock were left alone. Hopefully it will eventually tone down over time.
Al

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2012, 07:39:54 PM »

Back in 2010 Mad Monk shared this story:

"When I first started boiling linseed oil with lead I had a number of talks with Kit Ravenshear. He was a regular at Dixon's Gunmasker's Fair. He really took to my boiled oil project.

In regards to the shotgun stocks in England.
Kit spoke to me about the old way things worked in England. A "tinker" would go around to the various estates. He would give each gunstock a fresh coat of boiled oil. This would be the classic deep ruby red and fairly viscous boiled linseed oil. Generally they would put the guy up for a day or two and feed him while he worked on the stocks. Of course he got a small fee also. This would be done over the Winter months when the guns were not in use. This would also give the fresh coats of oil plenty of time to dry. This was a yearly thing so over a period of years the finish would get firly deep on the stocks. A good lead boiled oil finish can pass for a varnish finish when built up in numerous layers like that.

Kit would go off on a rant about how poorly we "colonials" treated guns we used. That to most "colonials the gun was little more than another tool. Not given the level of care that a good gun in England was given.

When you look at old sources they will often call a boiled oil a varnish. There was a period in time where an oil finish simply meant raw linseed oil. As soon as ANYTHING, including dryers, was added to linseed oil it became a varnish."

James Rogers · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2012, 10:52:30 PM »

I just finished looking at a fowling piece now listed for sale by a UK antique arms dealer. It sold in patina a few months ago at auction for about 600 GBP. It is now listed for 2500 GBP and all the patina is gone as it stands in high polish ready for its new buyer ) :

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2012, 12:28:21 AM »

What the market wants, eh?....assuming he sells it. Hey, 20,000 Englishmen can't all be wrong.... So whatever the cultural consensus is drives behavior and price.........??

Feltwad · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:24:48 PM »

For a large majority of English Collectors the British Preference is far from the truth yes you will find some dealers and such who resort to this practice of extreme polish but it is just the same in the States .
Feltwad

vtbuck223 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:20:44 PM »

Thanks for the great discussion around answering my question. In response to Feltwad...let me just note this observation. What really got my attention on the British sites is frequently seeing pieces cleaned up in the process of posting them. The thing is....nobody on the site even says anything about it at all. If somebody were to do that here or any of the sites in America there would be plenty of comments and opinions.

Feltwad · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2012, 04:07:48 PM »

All I can say if you want the truth of British Preference you should have posted your thread on the British Muzzle Loading Site
Feltwad

JCKelly · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:28:09 PM »

Saw a nice flint fowler at Widfors (spel?) in Stockholm few years back. Nice & bright. They were a tad embarrassed when I complimented them on the high quality of the reconversion . . .

smart dog · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2012, 06:26:08 PM »

Hi Folks,
This thread reminds me a little of those common threads in which the poster asks some technical question about a product like Chambers locks, and eveybody dances around the question with their own ideas until someone finally says, "Why not just call Barbie and find out?" Well we actually have a response (Feltwad) from a collector and restorer in England who likely knows the answer and has given it. He has posted many photos of his guns on this site and do any of you remember seeing a single one that was excessively refinished or cleaned? He also said that excessive cleaning and refinishing may be done in some museums and by some dealers but that is not the norm for British collectors. So the more accurate question perhaps is why are some European museums and antique firearm dealers compelled to excessively refinish and clean firearms?

dave

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2012, 10:25:43 PM »

Well Dave, when you see examples with your own eyes at an alarming frequency, faith in someone that says otherwise is diminished to some degree. As I've said before, examples I've seen before are not cheap guns, but some of the better to best examples of English gunmaking. Figured work done on these might be performed by those most qualified. Others have sighted specific examples as well. As I said before, maybe this practice is changing to some degree in current times. I will add that I would not agree that the same practice occurrs in this country to the same degree. I firmly believe more sensitivity to this issue exists here. I have the feeling a little national pride is involved in this debate as well.

Jim

smart dog · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:11:01 AM »

Hi Jim,
I defer to your and others opinions on this because I have not had the pleasure of handling a lot of high-end British and European guns. The ones I've examined were well maintained and conserved. For example, on a silver mounted pistol by Barbar, the chiseled and cast silver mountings were still crisp and the hallmarks clear, although they were lightly polished. Silver is soft and would tend to show effects of vigorous cleaning and polishing. One India pattern musket was polished bright but did not appear to have lost any markings. However, I must admit that all of the dueling pistols that I examined (which were mostly early 19th century guns) had barrels that were rebrowned. I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt and Feltwad is a man on the scene, so to speak. "A little national pride showing"? Yes, absolutely, on both sides of the Atlantic.

dave

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Author Topic: British Preference? (Read 14033 times)