Hunting bags

[ohiostate]

Mr. Getz,

I have been shooting flintlock guns and reeancting for 40 years.  I have never met you, been by your table at the CLA many times.  I have owned guns by many well known makers.  While I admire "high art" guns, bags and horns I realized that these items were not, for the most part, carried by the early hunters, as they could not afford them, I admire the "real deal" items even more.  I want my gear to represent what was carried and made for frontier use.
I think you and other leaders of the CLA and other groups are missing a very important point.  " High art" guns, bags, horns, etc are not affordable to most folks.  I am worried that you and others are sending a message to young, just getting started, people and others in our sport that in order to be correct or ACCEPTED they must spend large quantities of money, to have the very best.  What is the very best?  I feel that an early, plain gun, bag represents skill just as much as a highly decorated item.  In fact I think high art is in one's ability to recreate what was really used and make it look and feel right.
Jack Hubbard and others make bags, that are not aged, but made in the fashion of the frontier with materials and tools that were accesable to them.  Why would a frontiersman travel 500 to 600 miles to Salem, Richmond, or Charlestown to buy a highly tooled bag when he could make one himself or his neighbor could, right on the spot?
Has the CLA and other groups become ladder climbers, those on the top and then the rest of us?  I hope not!!!
 

[bgf]

I just viewed the hunting bag on the blog site, made by Jack Hubbard.    Not only Jack, but many bag makers are doing
things like this.  Is there a competition going on that give a prize to the "ugliest" bag?  I have built a bunch of barn guns
but have not really tried to make them ugly.   Just curious..........Don

[Perhaps overly uncharitable response removed by original poster after consideration.  Thanks, moderator, for judicious editing earlier.]


Moderator RP modified this post ever so slightly to take some of the bite out of it.  

[Don Getz]

Ooooooh.........looks like I have touched a nerve.   The remarks I made about Jack Hubbards bags were done with tongue
in cheek.   I've known Jack for a long time, maybe longer than you, and always considered him a friend.    As for your
comments about barrels, I made my last barrel about 15 years ago.  Funny thing tho, my barrels were always good enough for Jud Brennan, Mark Silver, John Bivins (while still living) and a whole bunch of good, and not so good builders.
At 79 years of age, I still enjoy gunbuilding, and you have never heard or seen me proclaiming them to be great things,
I let them stand on their own merit.  You will also note that I am not ashamed to put my name on any of my messages
on this forum................Don

[rich pierce]

Giuys, if you want this topic to get shut down, keep making the comments personal and attack each other rather than talking about why people make aged items, what is appealing about that, why some find such work distasteful, what is art, etc.  If everyone could look at their posts before finalizing them and ask, "Is this about the longrifle and related topics, or am I just poking a skunk with a sharp stick?"  we could learn a lot more from each other and save the moderators about an hour every day.

[Acer Saccharum]

Gentlemen, there is all the room in the world for disagreement, and discussion of the merits or lack there of of a particular work or style. But please do keep your conversations civil and polite. Often it helps to wait a moment, re-read, and sometimes edit, before you hit the send button.

Tom

[bigbat]

Dont know if this will help at all to put things into persepective:

Cathy and I lived for 10 years in an Eskimo village close to the Bering sea.  People were resourceful in most cases. We ordered a years worth of groceries at a time as groceries came in on a barge that came up from Seattle.  One day I admired a coat being worn by an Eskimo employee that I wanted for Cathy.  It was made of spotted seal, that had been tanned in his mothers urine. Decorated with clipped calf skin that was cut and sewn into designs, the hood was adorned with wolverine, wolf and beaver.   It had a used beat up green zipper and lining that was made of three different colors of used waffle weave insulated under wear. (resourceful)  I traded 2 wolf pelts, a wolverine, several beaver and racoons for this coat.  All so my white wife could look like alittle Eskimo gal.  People are, sometimes, resourceful.  Now to show you how resourceful the Eskimos were, as the migrating runs of Salmon appeared in the Kuskokwim River many of the 'Skimos "threw last years dried fish into the river awaiting the new arrival.  So much for that tale.  The Eskimos called me "Ithpuk Gusiak"  and my wife was "Little Hit". My name meant "Big eyed white man"  or the "Cossack that was always watching"  I like that name.  Now doesnt this story help you make sense of a beat up pouch?  No I didnt think so.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

  I see it all!!

[Bob Roller]

Ohiostate,
That is a fine letter and as a metal working craftsman who makes locks and triggers,I would like to offer an opinion from one old man's point of view. Most,if not all makers of high quality items,be they guns,locks,triggers,horns,bags or whatever are usually and I speak for myself telling one and all what they think of themselves AND what is even more important,the buyer who will be the final judge of all he or she surveys and is offered. Price is of course a major and final determiner of such activities.
Entry level guns are frequently if not always of lesser quality but can stimulate interest and a seeking of something one or two steps above what is now possesed and used. My own preference is for unadorned rifles which are not complicated but can be made at different levels of quality to suit a wide area and different levels of interest. I don't think anyone on this forum or any CLA member would "look down their noses"at those of limited means.
I like automobile analogies and the Auto in America ran the gamut between the Model T Ford to the mighty supercharged Duesenberg that had a clock in the dash that cost more than the Ford. The same goes for guns,they run from affordable production types to stunning one of a kind for that very narrow market that
they cater to.
In closing,can someone post a picture of a Schimmel or a barn gun for me??

Bob Roller

[Keb]

I have an old canvas bag that I put some fried chicken in. It stained it pretty good. Should I throw it away or put a barked tanned patch over it?
:/

[art riser]

KebMo, What do you want for it?

[T.C.Albert]

Ours is a society that apparently likes its old cars to look new and its new jeans to look old, and entire industries cater to these tastes in a wide variety of products...

Accordingly, some people find the inherent character in a well aged, though otherwise contemporary hunting pouch very appealing, and are willing to pay top dollar for examples that in my opinion may be among the best contemporary American folk art pieces being produced today.

Artist members of our unique "culture of the long rifle" movement are making many such contributions, not only with horns and pouches, but with traditional guns, cutlery, Native American cultural interpratations and recreations, etc etc etc...traditional design and execution are definitely an important if not prerequisite aspect, but often times the applied patina itself is a big part of the overall visual impact and appeal.

And serious makers/artists will all probably agree that it's a bit more complicated than just using old or dirty materials to make a project from.  

my two cents worth,
tc  

[Keb]

KebMo, What do you want for it?

$5.00 before any interest was shown. Keeping with tradition, I now want $145.00.

[Acer Saccharum]

Mr. Getz,

I have been shooting flintlock guns and reeancting for 40 years.  I have never met you, been by your table at the CLA many times.  I have owned guns by many well known makers.  While I admire "high art" guns, bags and horns I realized that these items were not, for the most part, carried by the early hunters, as they could not afford them, I admire the "real deal" items even more.  I want my gear to represent what was carried and made for frontier use.
I think you and other leaders of the CLA and other groups are missing a very important point.  " High art" guns, bags, horns, etc are not affordable to most folks.  I am worried that you and others are sending a message to young, just getting started, people and others in our sport that in order to be correct or ACCEPTED they must spend large quantities of money, to have the very best.  What is the very best?  I feel that an early, plain gun, bag represents skill just as much as a highly decorated item.  In fact I think high art is in one's ability to recreate what was really used and make it look and feel right.
Jack Hubbard and others make bags, that are not aged, but made in the fashion of the frontier with materials and tools that were accesable to them.  Why would a frontiersman travel 500 to 600 miles to Salem, Richmond, or Charlestown to buy a highly tooled bag when he could make one himself or his neighbor could, right on the spot?
Has the CLA and other groups become ladder climbers, those on the top and then the rest of us?  I hope not!!!
 

Just a topic that is near and dear to me, so I will comment on it.

I could never afford to buy originals, nor a decent new made gun. This drove me crazy, but there you have it. With car payments, kids, and the business of life, something always got in the way of saving up enough to buy something decent.

So my approach was that I would learn to make what I wanted. This has paid me back in good fortune. I not only have a nice rifle, for example, but I also have learned the skills to produce it, and hours spent studying, and very little time left over to sit at the bar or watch TV.

Tom

[art riser]

KEB MO,

Let's see it... perhaps you have a future in making something someone wants to buy.  (Since I have no earthly idea who you are it is entirely possible that you already make something that people buy.  By the way why do you have a problem with "Keeping with tradition?")

[ohiostate]

Bob Roller

Appreciate your comments.  Let me clarify a bit.  A plain gun is not always an entry level gun.  I have had several guns in the past ten years made by the gentleman that made the gun I now use and they were all way beyond an entry level gun.  They all had the same barrels, locks, and funrniture as the higher priced guns.  They all took the same amount of game as the more expensive guns.
While these guns don't have the carving, wire inlay, etc, they do have proper architechture, balance, and feel, that any excellent gun should have.  They are historically correct and properly reflect the time period they are intended to represent.  The fit of the furniture and barrel is as good as anyone's.  You can't hide sloppy workmanship and incorrect architecture on a plain gun.

[art riser]

Bob,

My first gun was a very plain iron mounted mountain gun by Frank and Hershel House.  It had no frills at all, but right out of the box it shot like a house afire. Great little lock by a fellow named Bob with an unknown barrel.  It held and pointed so well and functioned to perfection.  It was indeed an amazing piece of work.  It was not in some people's eyes a work of art, but to others, myself included, it was a masterpiece.  

An old tattered bag was the perfect companion for it.  (Maybe it is a Southern thing?)

Art

[Bob Roller]

Art,
Like you.I prefer the plain but well done things be they guns or cars. I think I remember that lock,a Maslin perhaps that I made from parts Russ Hamm lost in a default. I also prefer iron mountings and a close second is silver.Brass is a poor third and I don't like the smell of it while I am working it.
The tattered bag would be a fine companion piece for that gun as well as a horn showing high "mileage".
Where can decent quality silver butt plates and trigger guards be bought for a Northern style caplock rifle?If anyone knows,I would appreciate a note here or at<wvgzr@webtv.net>.
A Southern thing? Maybe so.All I know is I like the iron trimmed simple rifles,too.

Bob Roller

[Keb]

...  (Maybe it is a Southern thing?)

Art

I'm in Ohio and I like the looks of old & weathered. You may say, "But Ohio is a northern state."
Uh,  I'm in "south" Ohio, thank you very much.

KEB MO,

Let's see it... perhaps you have a future in making something someone wants to buy.  (Since I have no earthly idea who you are it is entirely possible that you already make something that people buy.  By the way why do you have a problem with "Keeping with tradition?")

I'm a nobody that makes mediocre stuff. The bag was a mistake made by my over zealous appetite. I don't think I could eat enough chicken to keep up a steady supply of these bags anyway.

My problem with the tradition of price gouging is I have a conscience. :/

[Acer Saccharum]

Then there's that painting with the lady with her face all wonky and three eyes. You probably would toss it, it's so ugly.

However some people find this style extremely appealing, and when it's signed Picasso, it's also worth millions.

[T.C.Albert]

I'm a nobody that makes mediocre stuff. The bag was a mistake made by my over zealous appetite. I don't think I could eat enough chicken to keep up a steady supply of these bags anyway.

My problem with the tradition of price gouging is I have a conscience

awwww...you mean youre not the blues singer whose name you are posting under?? Dang, I was gonna ask if charging 18 bucks for a 50 cent cd disk constituted gouging too...hee heeee...just kidding.
tc

[Mike Brooks]

I've known Jack Hubbard for years and always considered him a friend and a rascal.... I always thought his business moniker " Old Uglies" referred to himself.....

[Jack Hubbard]

Thanks Mike.....I have to say that Mike was my inspiration for the "out of box" smooth guns....Got me started on .55 bores....We've had a chuckle and some good conversation from time to time about "stuff"....I started out with "Early Uglies", but now that you mentioned it....I guess its time for the "Old".....I sure like Mikes work....John Howe had a .55 smoothrifle that Mike built with a long barrel that shot like everything before he bent it....

[Mike Brooks]

I imagine you're quite an old rascal these days Jack, been along time since we've had a chance for a face to face.

[Don Getz]

I would like everyone to know that I didn't intend to create such a furor over Jack's bags, if you have ever been in our
barrel shop you would see a lot of them on the wall.  We didn't put them there to throw stones at.  Many christmases
ago I had Jeff Kline put together a "scrotum" bag with knife and small hatchet for son John, neatest thing you have
ever seen.  Apparently there are others who have the same type of bag and the collective group is known as the
"scrotarians", and they are not connected to the Lions or Rotary clubs.   From the comments made one would think that
I have nothing but high grade guns made by the best builders.    I own three guns made by others............a neat Berks
county gun by the late Dave Dodds, one by John and Frank House, and a chunk gun by Ron Borron.  I do have a few
nice guns I made for myself, but, mainly I have built barn guns, probably at least 50 of them.  They would all look great
with a Hubbard bag, it would be nice to have one without holes to keep the balls on the inside......(that was supposed
to be a joke).  Now, unless you have something good to say about Jack, let's end this thread.................Don

[Jack Hubbard]

Mike....I sure would like to see you for a visit....Always enjoyed your ideas....As Don said, time to go to bed....