Joe d's first build

[joe d]

Hi all.

This is where I've got to with the first build.... supposed to at least look a bit like RCA 83.
As I live in the middle of nowhere in longrifle terms, I have no local resources for advice
or critique, so have at it, please!  I would rather fix anything fixable now than have it haunt me
forever.











Don't worry about the nasty hardware store dowel in the ramrod pipes, it's just a place holder
while I finish up the hickory one.

Looking forward to your comments.

Joe

[Rkymtn57]

Hey Joe being a guy in Colorado I understand your frustration about available resources.
I'm working on my first build also so thank you for posting your pics , maybe I can learn from the replys also. Thanks D

[Tom Currie]

Closer pictures would help us. From what I see you"ve done a good job on your first build. One thing I will mention is that the step at the wrist ( where the rear of the trigger guards attaches ) looks really pronounced, I would trim from the the toe plate forward inorder to make the step more subtle. RCA 83 does has a significant step, probably more so than many originals, but I would still trim it down some. The 2nd pic down ( from the cheek side ) shows a shadow there indicating a harsh transition in stock shape that shouldn't be there.

[Acer Saccharum]

The patchbox lid is too thick. It should taper down to a thin edge, like a very dull knife edge.

[David Rase]

Closer pictures would help us. The 2nd pic down ( from the cheek side ) shows a shadow there indicating a harsh transition in stock shape that shouldn't be there.

It looks like from the pictures the wrist transition to the comb is not rounded enough.  The transition from the the comb to the cheekpiece is not rounded, e.g. scooped out concave enough.  The transitions are too sharp and not subtle and well blended.
Dave   

[Keb]

Your inletting looks good and your ability to drill the pins square to the surface & to each other also looks good. The lock panels need some attention. The transition appears to be too sharp. The fronts are a little long too. Keep at it.

[Don Getz]

I can see a lot of things that require re-shaping, kind of difficult to describe.   You need to see some guns, pictures just
don't do it...........Don

[KLMoors]

The things that jumped out at me were what Dave Rase said. Try to get a more subtle blending from wrist to stock and from cheekpiece to stock. For the real subtle stuff, it really does help to see some well built originals or contemporaries, but for a lot of it, pictures from several angles will get you real close. Try to closely study each area of the stocks in the RCA pictures. I use a magnifying glass all the time when looking at them.

[Jim Kibler]

Joe,

It seems you've done some neat and careful work.  It's tough to work from pictures.  Until you have a mental understanding of stock shape, it's very difficult to interpret a picture of a longrifle.  As others have mentioned, there are some issues in this area, specifically stock architecture.  It will be virutally impossible to convey and describe things in writing.  Like others have said, it would be good to find some well made original or modern longrifles to study.  An option, might be to purchase a well done precarved stock.  This could be a defect or second.  With that said, many are pretty badly shaped, but there are a few that would set you in a good direction.  Once again, it appears you're doing some good careful work.  Keep at it.

Jim

[smshea]

Ditto to what has been said. When looking at pictures try to really look at the relationship of the lock panels to the wrist and the under belly(There shouldn't really be a belly)where the trigger and guard are. It helps to imagine it without any of the moldings that might be around the panels of the pictured rifle. Once that area is in proportion its a lot easier to Not make mistakes flowing from this area. At least in my opinion, All things flow from this area. Having said that, Its an Awesome first rifle and a little in hand exposure to original guns or really good contemporaries and you will be well on your way! Very Nice! 

[joe d]

Hi all

Many thanks to those who have taken the time to reply.  I will have at it to make the suggested improvements
and be back with more photos for further assistance.  I will also try to get better  photos the next time!

Regards, Joe

[James Wilson Everett]

Joe,

One idea that may help the wrist/lock panel area:  Often reproduction guns have too much wood beneath the lock/above the trigger guard giving the gun a "chubby" appearance in this area.  A way to help this is to drill a locater hole just at the breech  into the ramrod hole.  The locater hole will be covered by the front extension of the trigger guard.  Now you can see how much wood there is between the bottom of the stock and the ramrod hole.  If there is more than 0.1 inch, you can shave the wood off the belly without the fear of the great OOPS of cutting into the ramrod hole.  Often the ramrod will be touching the top inlet surface of the trigger guard on original guns.  There should be really very little wood showing beneath the lockplate and above the trigger guard.
Here is an example.


Jim

[joe d]

Hi

Started with Jim's mention of too much wood left under the panels; got off most of a 1/4":


I now have a little less than 1/16" of wood left between the front extension of the guard and the
ramrod hole. I also shortened the lock-panel a bit, and reshaped the flow of the wood from the lock-panel
into the molding, it now curves instead of being a flat.

I'll get to work on the comb/cheek piece and the various transitions there and post some photos for further
critique/advise soon. 

Thanks again to those who take the time to help out.

Joe

[mbokie5]

Your inletting looks good and your ability to drill the pins square to the surface & to each other also looks good. The lock panels need some attention. The transition appears to be too sharp. The fronts are a little long too. Keep at it.

What are the 'fronts'?

I'm also a greenhorn at my first build.

[JTR]

Your inletting looks good and your ability to drill the pins square to the surface & to each other also looks good. The lock panels need some attention. The transition appears to be too sharp. The fronts are a little long too. Keep at it.

What are the 'fronts'?

I'm also a greenhorn at my first build.

The wood lock panel area, in front of the lock. The same on the other side, where there is a lot of wood in front of the side plate.

[mbokie5]

Your inletting looks good and your ability to drill the pins square to the surface & to each other also looks good. The lock panels need some attention. The transition appears to be too sharp. The fronts are a little long too. Keep at it.

What are the 'fronts'?

I'm also a greenhorn at my first build.

The wood lock panel area, in front of the lock. The same on the other side, where there is a lot of wood in front of the side plate.

Thank you kindly.

[joe d]

Here's some photos of the reshaping to date:





Hopefully a little closer to what it should look like.
Comments invited!

Joe

[Curtis]

Joe,

Looks like you have made a lot of improvements to those lock panels!  Keep up the good work.  The cheek piece needs taken down some still IMHO. 

Curtis

[Stophel]

I would say there's way too prounounced a "scoop" around the lock panels.

There also appears to be a scoop or flute at the front of the wrist step which should not be there.  The nose of the comb also appears to have a small "flute" and it could be opened up and flow into the wrist/butt/cheekpiece area better.   

[heinz]

Joe, the scrolls seperating the wrist from the comb seem to be placed too high.  This is a difficult area on a step wrist gun so take you time and try a lot of pencilled in marks until you are happy with it

[54ball]

  I may be wrong about this, but in my eye the beavertails may need to go or at least be re-done.  They are very nice and done well but I think they are holding you up.  It seems you may be building the rifle around the decoration instead of letting the architecture dictate where the decoration goes. 

  The step wrist needs some work.  RCA 114 or the Free Born rifle.  It has a step wrist but it is blended so well with the molding and TG its hard to tell it actually has a step wrist.  That may work well with your low comb rifle.

 http://americanhistoricservices.com/html/free_born.html

[joe d]

Well, here's some more progress:

reshaped the transition of the comb into the stock, and reduced the cheek piece, and the easy one, thinned out
the patchbox cover.

I can see the issue with the form of the stock where it meets the wrist at the step, not too sure I can do anything more
about it as I may have been a little too enthusiastic with the wood-removal way back when... may well have to live with it
as a reminder of "fist gun woes": the flat where the tail of the trigger guard goes is now barely wider than the brass
so I have no more room to bring it down to lose anymore of the "scoop" that is there.





Comments still welcome and desired, can't learn a thing otherwise.

Joe

[Meteorman]

may well have to live with it
as a reminder of "fist gun woes": the flat where the tail of the trigger guard goes is now barely wider than the brass so I have no more room to bring it down to lose anymore of the "scoop" that is there.
Comments still welcome and desired, can't learn a thing otherwise.

just a generic comment.
All individual parts are open to slight modifications to meet greater needs of overall architecture. 
Consider carefully if you want the existing width of the brass triggerguard tail to drive your decision about what can and can't be improved. 
That is....  can you modify the TG tail width and move ahead with improving the overall architectural flow ?
Just a thought.
/mike

[Stophel]

Did you make the wrist round on the bottom?  That would explain the "scoop" shape at the front of the step.  Make the wrist (on the next gun!) with a flat on the bottom from the triggerplate back to the step.   

[joe d]

Stophel:  The wrist is flat on the bottom, the "scoop" came about by continuing the flat up the step in the wrist, and mis-shaping the transition from the step to the stock.

Mike: I was concerned that I could not take much more off the sides of the tail of the TG without
totally changing the style of the thing.

Finally decided to narrow the brass by 1/32" on each side, and I glued in a piece of wood to replace some that was missing
so the flow of the butt was a smooth transition. 



The "black" line you see is the pre-stained glue line, hopefully it will mostly disappear in the finish.

Joe