cheekbone whomper

[caliber45]

Hey, guys -- Didn't pay enough attention when this subject came up a year or so ago (because I didn't have the problem then.) It had to do with the shape (amount of drop? height of the comb?) of the stock causing it to whomp the shooter in the cheek. Just built a new .40 flinter "carbine" (what Darryl calls a "canoe gun"), and it likes to whomp me on the cheekbone. I've built similar carbines in the past (half-stock), same caliber, and they didn't do that. What did I do wrong? tks! -- paulallen, greencastle, IN

[Don Getz]

Paul.......I would think that you probably built a gun with a roman nose comb, or it has a lot of drop built into the butt.
If you have a lot of drop in the butt, it will jump upward at the muzzle and smack your cheek bone.................Don

[Dphariss]

Recoil, if sufficient to move the shoulder back, moves the head DOWN.
Combine this with a stock design that is lacking and problems arise.
If it has low sights raise front and rear .100 or a little more and see if this helps. Its an easy fix in many cases.

Dan

[Roger Fisher]

A Canoe gun right? So it should look "Mountain" right?   Suggest find out where on the stock she hits your bone (cheek bone that is) then wrap her there with buckskin and laces on the bottom.  A bit of foam hidden under the buckskin can't hurt.  So, you will then have a more mountain piece that is a more comfee shooter.   Then only you (and we will know).  That way you have no need to go 'chopping' on the comb with your hawk.  BTW how much of a charge are you pouring down that little .40 maybe cut that back a bit.

[Swampwalker]

Try tapering the comb so it comes to nearly a point at it's terminus on top of the wrist, so that as the gun moves back during recoil, the cheek contact is diminishing.  Can't imagine having much trouble with a .40!

[Acer Saccharum]

Pictures would help, from the side and above the buttstock.
 
I have found a gun with a lot of drop can be uncomfortable to the cheek from a recoil standppoint. Straight pull guns are much easier on the face.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Pictures would help, from the side and above the buttstock.
 
I have found a gun with a lot of drop can be uncomfortable to the cheek from a recoil standppoint. Straight pull guns are much easier on the face.

I'll second that. Never again will I own a roman nose style rifle for shooting. They sure are pretty though.

[The other DWS]

If the butt is too short you may be creeping up on it, that can bash the face too.  worst I ever shot was a cut down canoe-ized" "Bess" one of my unit members built for his role as a eastern-metis. It had a short butt to start with but I think he shortened it a bit more in the conversion. It worked fine and looked real cute for reenactment use but when we went to the live fire match it tuned into a monster.

[JB2]

Paul, I'd be interested in seeing pics of your 'whomper' if you can get them posted.  Might help me get a better idea of what to avoid in the future too.  Thanks

Oh, BTW, do you shoot with any groups down in your area?  I'm in NW. IN and not many active ML groups close to me. 

Jimb

[Bob Roller]

There is a GOOD reason for the English Long Range Muzzle Loaders having a straight stock and a shotgun butt plate and that reason IS 100 grains of powder and 500+ grains of lead that is usually fired laying down.
To prove that there is at least one idiot on this forum,I built a rolling block back in 1999 styled like a Carlos Gove rifle owned by Scott Sibley and featured in Man at Arms magazine. It was a 40-90-420 an styled like a muzzle loader with a crescent butt plate and a fair amount of drop to the stock. I shoot off of cross sticks and that thing packed a wallop on both ends. It now belongs to a friend who seldom fires it.
It was a fun project but will not be repeated.

Bob Roller

[Eric Smith]

If roman nosed guns are so uncomfortable to shoot, why would they have ever been made? Certainly not just to hang on the wall. There must be some element missing in this equation.

[smallpatch]

I've had (3) Lehigh's, (1) Bucks Co. and (1) Fusil de Chasse, I've never received a cheek bite from any of them.
However, my son gets a sore cheek from straight stocked Lancaster's, and everything else in between those two extremes.
My son shoots from his armpit/bicep, I shoot more of a shotgun style in my shoulder/chest region.
Could this be the difference??  My son and I are almost identical in size, weight, height, etc.

[Jerry V Lape]

From my experience with modern shotguns, pitch (angle at the butt) can contribute to this quite a bit.  And if you used a commercially available butt plate on a deeper drop at heel type stock, the built in angle of the buttplate as received may have forced you into excessive pitch when you matched up the buttplate return with the top line of the stock.  This would emphasize the upward rotational movement of the gun when it recoils . It could also cause the butt to slip upward on your shoulder at the same time - sort of the perfect storm.   

[Eric Smith]

So what is the asnwer to buttplate alighnment to buttstock design for a sweet shooting piece, combined with length of pull and drop?

[t.caster]

Well you have to account for everyones cheekbone being different. If you add a lot of cast-off (+3/16") to the equation then you will increase the odds of it kicking. How high is the check piece, how wide, how rounded or not, is the comb line, etc., etc. My first ml build was a .45 cal. x 7/8" Rupp/Lehigh with a lot of drop and cast-off (it was all the rage) but it had a heavy barrel so it didn't kick. Balance was horrible though. Many yrs. later I swapped in a .50 x 7/8" and shortened it a couple inches. Then I started to feel it, but still not too bad.
I have shot one Lancaster that kicked badly, it had a light wt. swamped .50 cal x 38" barrel. But generally Lanc's are a pleasure to shoot all day.

[James Rogers]

So what is the asnwer to buttplate alighnment to buttstock design for a sweet shooting piece, combined with length of pull and drop?

Different for individuals in their physical build as well as how they hold, mount the gun and their stance.

[The other DWS]

You have to figure too, your personal geometry into the equation.  The size and shape of your face, your vision and how you have to get down on the stock to get a decent sight picture (aging eyes can really change shooting form), length of neck, width and thickness of shoulders, natural length of pull; all can have an impact.
 Most off the shelf rifles and most kit guns are built to some sort of medium "fits all standard" which may or may not fit any specific shooter.  A custom built gun should take all of those factors into account

  Most of my long gun builds over the years have been french-style smooth bores. Most have a lot of drop and a pretty well rounded heel. Most were also pretty light for bore size almost like a fowling piece.  I found that matching measurements taken from originals created problems for most guys.  The 18th C. French-Canadian woodsmen and voyageurs must have been shorter armed and thicker chested, which is logical. and the short butts worked for them.  I found adding an inch or two, to the stock length made a world of difference to my modern, taller, longer armed, and generally thinner friends.

you might try temporarily adding some padding to lengthen the butt and see if it changes things.  Even if it is not recoil absorbent I suspect it may help.

[caliber45]

Gents -- Thanks much for the varied advice, theories & comments. In answer to  questions: The carbine has a straight (not roman) comb, tapered to a near point at the front, about 13 1/2-inch length-of-pull, no cast-off, about 2 1/2-inch drop. Sorry I still haven't learned to post pics. It does have low sights. Good advice about the laced buckskin (padded?) wrap. I may give that a try. Thanks again! Jim B, I don't participate in group shooting (other than family), so don't know about any organization here; sorry. -- paulallen, greencastle, IN

[curly]

If it only has a 2 1/2" drop, no cast off, and it has the proper trigger pull of 13 1/2", it sounds to me that the problem would be the proper butt plate pitch. Check out Greybeards post on "rifle pitch" and see if that wouldn't help you out.

Curly

[The other DWS]

"proper trigger pull of 13 1/2"     thats fine, IF you body requires a 13 1/2"  but what if your body needs 14 1/2 or longer or shorter.   to misquote a flamboyant attorney,  "if the stock don't fit, you'll shoot like S**t"

[woodburner]

I do not have a solution other than conscious shooting technique.  I have
experienced the "whoomp", put a dab of grease on the joints of your
thumb and you may discover the source of the problem on your cheek.
Tim

[James Rogers]

There is no real way to tell anything until seeing the gun being shot by the individual.
 By a 2 1/2" drop, I assume that is at the heel and it in itself only says the gun is not excessive in drop at heel. The drop of comb nose combined with the heel drop gives the angle height that is being dealt with and further creates what the drop at face measurement is.
Again, no real way to tell but of I had to guess, I would say a combination of needing to correct shooting stance a bit with a gun that ALMOST fits as far as comb height. In the latter, the shooter could be barely ( loosely)  hovering over the comb instead of on it ( solid but not excessive). This would create a bump to the face every shot. If this is the case, a bit of moleskin or leather to raise the comb may help to see the sights and actually mount on thhe gun. Many shooters avoid this problem with even more drop off the face. Some are good shots that way but could probably be even better with the triangled anchor of a gun that fits.

[greybeard]

How much powder?
Bob

[Jerry V Lape]

Coule things you could try which are easy to do and just temporary:

Temporarily glue a non skid surface on the buttplate.  If the butt is moving during the shot that could cause a problem. 

As mentioned by another, put a couple layers of material on the comb in the cheek contact area to see if that helps by giving you solid contact there.  Layers of thin foam used in packing taped down with blue painters tape is easy and non marring. 

Make a butt extension out of a piece of 2x6, remove the buttplate, and screw the extension to the existing butt. (Might have to file in curve to match the buttplate inlet a little).   Now you can adjust it for length (start long so you can cut it down to find what you like best. ) and for pitch.
Make sure to accurately record the dimensions as you test so you don't have to repeat the process. 

I would start with the non slip butt;  then the length/pitch.   

[Don Getz]

Another thing I am having troubles with........how do you turn a 40 cal. gun into a "whomper"?........Don