cheekbone whomper

[curly]

My thought too Don. Never heard of that one before today.

[The other DWS]

if the stock is wrong, and/or your thumb wrapped around the wrist bangs the side of your face right next to your eye, combined with maybe a bit too much prime, you can get a real flinch-inducing "whomp" real fast , thats all out of proportion to the actual mathematical recoil.   BTDT early in my flintlock experience

[caliber45]

Guys -- Still more good ideas. I'll consider them. Powder charge is light (40 grains), so the "whomp" surprised the heck out of me. May be using a bit too much FFFF in the pan, but wouldn't think that would make that much difference. Thanks! P.S. I was sighting it in (sitting at a shooting bench) at the time, so it may be entirely different when I'm shooting freehand. -- paulallen, greencastle, IN

[The other DWS]

Paul,  shooting at a bench can make a BIG difference particularly if you are sitting/holding it wrong.  betchya try it offhand it'll be a fair amount better.

[Dphariss]

So what is the asnwer to buttplate alighnment to buttstock design for a sweet shooting piece, combined with length of pull and drop?

The answer is having enough clearance for the cheek or using a stock design that will not bang the cheek bone.
There are cheek biters here. Take your choice and see if you can get them.
Calibers are all 50 and above. One is pretty obvious. The other not so much.
I will give the answer a little later.

Dan
1

2

3

4

5

[Don Getz]

I'm still trying to digest the fact that too much powder in the pan can effect recoil???...........Don

[Eric Smith]

So what is the answer to buttplate alignment to buttstock design for a sweet shooting piece, combined with length of pull and drop?

The answer is having enough clearance for the cheek or using a stock design that will not bang the cheek bone.
There are cheek biters here. Take your choice and see if you can get them.
Calibers are all 50 and above. One is pretty obvious. The other not so much.
I will give the answer a little later.

Dan

Sounds to me like you are saying its in the placement and design of the cheekpiece? 
1

2

3

4

5

[Vomitus]

 I going to take a wild stab at this Dan. Nos. 1 and 5 look like they will hold great. The wender looks like it will jump. The mountain gun with its larger barrel looks like pain ready to happen with its crescent butt. The ladies rifle,dunno? I believe it's all in the pitch of the buttplate.Just my humble opinion.

[Dphariss]

I going to take a wild stab at this Dan. Nos. 1 and 5 look like they will hold great. The wender looks like it will jump. The mountain gun with its larger barrel looks like pain ready to happen with its crescent butt. The ladies rifle,dunno? I believe it's all in the pitch of the buttplate.Just my humble opinion.

Your running 50% right on the cheek biters right now.
#5 is good for about anything.

#1 is somewhat of a ringer, it weighs 18 pounds or so. So it don't move much as a 50 caliber. But the design is first rate.
Now folks only have to pick 2 out of 3.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Sounds to me like you are saying its in the placement and design of the cheekpiece? 

Cheek rest is just to give a little better contact with the stock. Its not likely the bite the shooter.

Dan

[The other DWS]

What I was trying to say in response to someone else questioning a 40 cal rifle being a "whomper", (Implying I think, that a 40 cal could not be causing enough recoil to be called a "whomper") was that, a combination of things, other than just actual calculatable recoil, can cause one to bang one's face more that one anticipated.  
For some overcharging a flintlock pan can create an anticipatory flinch. I've seen folk show flinch/recoil with a primed but unloaded rifle.
 I was not claiming the you were doing that of course, just that it could happen, and that combined with other factors, heavy load, short stock etc etc could cause one shooting a 40 caliber rifle to feel that they were being abused by it.   I was not claiming that an over charged pan in and of itself would cause recoil.
  I apologize for any confusion I caused with my wording

[Randy Hedden]

For some overcharging a flintlock pan can create an anticipatory flinch. I've seen folk show flinch/recoil with a primed but unloaded rifle.

I can't imagine what you are referring to when you say an overcharged pan??  I fill the pan on all my flintlocks completely to the top of the pan, (bottom of the flash hole).  I believe when Pletch was testing how much to fill a pan, that the completely filled pan created faster ignition of the main charge.  What I don't believe is that a pan can be over charged.

I would hesitate to say that a full pan creates a flinch.  I believe that a person who flinches when a full pan of powder ignites, also flinches when just 3-4 grains in the pan ignite.

Randy Hedden 

[The other DWS]

Randy, over the years I have seen a couple guys fill a pan as full as they can get it even when the flash hole is halfway down from the top, 3 or 4 pops with one of those spring plunger priming tube gizmos; enough so the frizzen barely closes and they'd cram more in if they could figure out how.  Combine that with an oversize eroded vent hole and you can get a panflash that'd make a bronze statue flinch.
 one was an old timer who was stuck in the lower part of the learning curve and a couple were friends of his who treated every word out of his mouth as black powder gospel.

[Randy Hedden]

Randy, over the years I have seen a couple guys fill a pan as full as they can get it even when the flash hole is halfway down from the top, 3 or 4 pops with one of those spring plunger priming tube gizmos; enough so the frizzen barely closes and they'd cram more in if they could figure out how.  Combine that with an oversize eroded vent hole and you can get a panflash that'd make a bronze statue flinch.
 one was an old timer who was stuck in the lower part of the learning curve and a couple were friends of his who treated every word out of his mouth as black powder gospel.

Careful there DW, sounds like you are saying I am an old timer who is stuck in the lower part of the learning curve?? 

I still contend that if the gun is properly made there is no way that a pan can be overcharged.  A flint shooter with a flinch, flinches no matter how much powder is in the pan.  The flinch is more caused by the anticipation of the main charge going off than the the flash from the pan.  This also explains the flinch when a primed pan with no main charge causes a shooter to flinch.  You could give the same shooter an unloaded rifle with nothing in the pan and he will still flinch. 

Randy Hedden

[bgf]

I've only seen the flash maybe 2-3 times, and I fill it good and full.  Now the times I saw it, I was thinking to myself "WOW -- it must do that every time, and I never see it!" 

[The other DWS]

Careful there DW, sounds like you are saying I am an old timer who is stuck in the lower part of the learning curve??     No sir, not any, at all, even!      I probably fit that category a whole lot better than you do anyway.

 I was just saying that under some circumstances a combination of different things could make a 40 calibre rifle uncomfortable to shoot and "poor" priming technique could be a potential contributor to it.  I did not intend to drag a red herring across the discussion

[Joe S]

The second one down looks pretty rough Dan.  Who built that thing anyway?

[Dphariss]

The second one down looks pretty rough Dan.  Who built that thing anyway?

I did.
I did not put enough drop at the the lockplate tail to angle the wrist down. Its a long story.... I built this rifle over a 10 year period from making the action to getting it stocked.
Its really a good shootable rifle and the cheek bite was minor and went away with a slight raising of the sights. Its been used a lot since the photo was taken. Off hand, off a chunk and off a "plank rest".
The other is #4, the Don King Kentucky my wife is shown with. It LOOKS OK but was worse than the swivel, but its a 54 and was lighter than the Swivel.
I had to raise the sights about .80 on the DK rifle IIRC. Then it was OK as well.
The others are all good.

Dan