Author Topic: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis  (Read 20711 times)

Offline Eric Smith

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Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« on: April 17, 2012, 01:48:12 PM »
I need something to stain a stock with. I have read the threads about the ferric nitrate crystals. My question is this, How many stocks can be stained with 500g of ferric nitrate crystals. Muzzleloader Builder Supply has Wahkon Bay aqua fortis in a 8oz bottle. How far would 1 bottle go?
Eric Smith

Mike H

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2012, 01:58:34 PM »
     
    Eric,
         My guess would be that one 8oz bottle would probably do three stocks or there abouts. Regards---Mikeh---
                                                                                                                                                     

Offline cmac

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 03:14:09 PM »
I would normally use 2/3rds of an 8 oz bottle per stock. A lot depends on how dark you want it. I buy it in larger quantities if I can. I have a jeweler near me that I can normally get the "pure" stuff off of. The Wahkon Bay stuff is weak in comparison

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 03:19:22 PM »
I would like to fine the "pure" aqua fortis but have no idea where. I dont know any jewelers. ???
Eric Smith

Meteorman

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 03:38:09 PM »
How many stocks can be stained with 500g of ferric nitrate crystals.
I've done four longrifles with FeNO3 crystals and have used maybe 1/2 of the 500g.
If you mix the crystals with denatured alcohol, it has a shelf life; don't mix more than you need.
For 2 coats, 60ml (2 fluid oz) is plenty.
/mm

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 03:41:31 PM »
The crystals are available at The Science Company online  $30 shipped for 500 grams.  You can do
a large number of stocks with one bottle.  Dissolve in water or denatured alcohol.  I made more than half a pint
of AF with about 1/6th of the bottle.
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Offline Dave B

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 03:51:03 PM »
I have used the Wahkon bay and have been very pleased with it. Other types may produce may produce slightly different  tones. I have checked to see that the solution has been saturated with Iron by putting a little degreased steel wool into a glass container with the contents from the bottle it(do this out side). If the solution is properly saturated the steel wool will not desolve if it does keep adding till it wont.  I like to use two coats of solution for my rifles and the 8 oz bottle will do for two rifles and have a little left over for a pistol.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline JDK

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 04:47:03 PM »
I have a jeweler near me that I can normally get the "pure" stuff off of. The Wahkon Bay stuff is weak in comparison
CMAC, Couple questions.  What is your definition of "pure" AF?  What does your jeweler do with AF?  If you are getting pure acid from the jeweler, it is not AF.  Just want to save some of those new to this some confusion.

Now, I haven't had to buy any Wahkon Bay since the old company stopped making it.  It is my understanding that it is still the same formula.  If you find their AF solution weak, try their Bluing or Browning solutions.  As I understand it, it is the same ingredients but stronger to react on metal.  It does work on wood.  J.D.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 06:43:51 PM »
I would like to fine the "pure" aqua fortis but have no idea where. I dont know any jewelers. ???

You need Nitric Acid.
This is really nasty stuff.
If you lived near me I could give you all you need.
You could try a HS Science teacher. They might even make some stain as a demo if you were lucky.
I gave a gallon to out HS some years back since someone had given me several gallons back 20 years ago or so.
Since the crystals produce identical result having the acid around is not really necessary unless making browning or Rust Blue solutions.
Dan
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Offline JDK

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 07:42:04 PM »
Since the crystals produce identical result having the acid around is not really necessary unless making browning or Rust Blue solutions.
Dan

I have not looked in to the chemistry but has anybody here tried increasing the concentration of crystals in their mix to see it produces an adequate browning/bluing solution or does the acidity remain the same?

I also would perfer to stick with the crystals or other commercially available brews as I am not comfortable keeping pure acid around.  So of you already know that if acid is released into an enclosed environment there are many potential problems not the least of which is the vapor will rust all the metal, i.e. tools, within it's reach and will even damage some plastic/rubber products.....ask me how I know.....suffice to say I don't charge batteries in an unvented garage anymore.  J.D.
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 09:42:51 PM »
I decided to go with the Ferric Nitrate at the Science Co. After you mix it with denatured alcohol, do you have to add iron like with regular AFortis? Still hit it with a heat gun to neutralize after application?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 09:43:44 PM by E. Smith »
Eric Smith

Offline JDK

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 10:36:40 PM »
No.  The iron is already in the mix....it is the "ferric" part.  When you dissolve the crystals you will have Aqua Fortis Reagent.

As far as adding iron to AF?  AF for our purposes is not AF unless it already had iron in it.  You add iron to the nitric acid/water until the acid will not dissolve anymore iron....then you have our AF Reagent stain.

J.D.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 10:40:37 PM by JDK »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 03:09:03 AM »
I decided to go with the Ferric Nitrate at the Science Co. After you mix it with denatured alcohol, do you have to add iron like with regular AFortis? Still hit it with a heat gun to neutralize after application?

Mixing iron and Nitric Acid creates Ferric Nitrate when the reaction is complete.
So the stain is not AF. Its MADE with AF.

Heat brings out the color it reacts the iron to produce the best color.
The crystals can be mixed with distilled water as well as alcohol.

Dan
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 06:45:03 PM »
http://kyantec.com/

Online catalog, $49.50 for 2.2L 68-70% Nitric Acid.  You can make enough stain with that to last for one heck of a long time.
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JoeG

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 08:30:51 AM »
using a 10% solution of nitric and applying heat will give you dark stripes and a nice yellow undercoat

Offline JDK

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 07:55:30 PM »
using a 10% solution of nitric and applying heat will give you dark stripes and a nice yellow undercoat


Please clarify.  Are you saying a 10% solution of nitric acid in water (Aqua fortis) without any diluted iron (Aqua fortis reagent) will still stain the wood?

J.D.
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mbokie5

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 08:29:05 PM »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 10:12:05 PM »
Yes, there are others similiar but the Wahkon Bay is the best I have used.
Dennis
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mbokie5

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2012, 12:00:37 AM »
Yes, there are others similiar but the Wahkon Bay is the best I have used.
Dennis


I'll order on Monday. Is there any thing else I should order while I' m there to make this work?

Meteorman

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2012, 12:23:13 AM »
I'll order on Monday. Is there any thing else I should order while I' m there to make this work?

if ya don't already have one, get a heat gun at the nearest hardware store; cheapest one will do fine.
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hardware-power-tools-heat-guns/wagner-heat-gun-mht1220-1200-watts-232401.html

mbokie5

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2012, 01:03:24 AM »
I'll order on Monday. Is there any thing else I should order while I' m there to make this work?

if ya don't already have one, get a heat gun at the nearest hardware store; cheapest one will do fine.
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-hardware-power-tools-heat-guns/wagner-heat-gun-mht1220-1200-watts-232401.html

I have one. but thanks for the tip.

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2012, 03:24:12 AM »
I couldn't find any aqua fortis when I was trying to find it a few years ago so I made my own. There is a local scientific supply comapany who sold me a quart bottle. I had to show them my business license because it is a hazardous substance they won't sell to general public. The cost was reasonable (greatest part of cost was for the special container). I have enough to last for years. I mixed it about 3 parts water one part nitric acid and added steel wool till it wouldn't eat any more. Mixed outside in stone container (generates heat while it is eating the iron) with apron, gloves and face shield.
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Offline davec2

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2012, 05:07:47 AM »
Part of the problem and confusion with all these concoctions is the incorrect nomenclature often being used here.  Aqua Fortis is the medieval, alchemical name for nitric acid...just the acid...not iron or anything else dissolved in the acid.  The acid, when applied to wood and heated, even with no iron present, will indeed color the wood darker.  The Ferric Nitrate solution (very improperly called "aqua fortis") generated when iron is dissolved in nitric acid, will produce a darker color when it is applied to wood and heated as the iron is now part of the chemical process that imparts color to the wood.  So if you ask a chemical supply house for "aqua fortis" they will give you nitric acid, not the ferric nitrate solution most are looking for.  So, as Dan Phariss correctly points out, you make ferric nitrate stain using aqua fortis (i.e. nitric acid).  Or, you can make ferric nitrate stain with ferric nitrate crystals...either way, it's the same stuff and neither of them are "Aqua Fortis".  The stain is not "Aqua Fortis" (which, by the way, means "strong water" in Latin.  They called it that because it dissolves a lot of stuff !)  

From time to time, I also see the term "Aqua Regia" bandied about.  Aqua Regia" ("Royal Water" in Latin) is a mixture of nitric acid (HNO3) and hydrochloric acid (HCl) ("Acidum Salis" in Latin because it was made with salt and sulfuric acid).  It is called Royal Water because it will dissolve gold.  Something neither nitric nor hydrochloric acid can do alone.  I recently had someone tell me how dangerous hydrochloric acid was.  They were surprised to learn that they had a stomach full of it and that a lot of people, who own pools or spas, throw a big slug of "muriatic acid" (i.e. hydrochloric acid) in the spa and then jump @!*% near naked into it.  The HCl in your stomach is strong enough to dissolve a horse shoe in fairly short order.

Dave C

P.S.  If you are looking to buy chemicals, unless you need it for some very specific reason, don't buy "reagent grade" anything.  Reagent grade chemicals are of very high purity and are used for chemical analysis where it is important to know exactly what you have in the solution.  Reagent grade chemicals are many times more expensive than lower grades.  "Laboratory" or "Technical" grade is what you want for home made wood stains.

P.P.S  If you just throw steel wool or nails in nitric acid to make ferric nitrate stain and let it get too hot, you will make an inferior stain.  You must slow down the reaction in an ice bath and keep the temperature cool while the iron is dissolving.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 05:21:41 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »
I was doing a bit more reading at The Science Co. website on ferric nitrate. It has a chart of different colors that require the additional addition of other chemicals to achieve a certain color or hue, such as adding ferric chloride to get a florentine brown, etc. Anyone doing any of that with the ferric nitrate?
Eric Smith

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Wahkon Bay Aqua fortis
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2012, 03:38:06 PM »
I was doing a bit more reading at The Science Co. website on ferric nitrate. It has a chart of different colors that require the additional addition of other chemicals to achieve a certain color or hue, such as adding ferric chloride to get a florentine brown, etc. Anyone doing any of that with the ferric nitrate?

Why would I bother?

"The more you over think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the drain"

Ferric nitrate is very color fast i would worry about the chemical additives effecting this.
But if you insist that the stock come out a specific color then you will have to use something else since its going to produce different colors on different pieces of wood.

Dan
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 03:55:10 PM by Dphariss »
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