Author Topic: A question about patina  (Read 8171 times)

longrifle

  • Guest
A question about patina
« on: April 22, 2012, 05:08:10 AM »
I recently picked up a old musket that is in fairly good shape the lock works and the stock is solid. The problem is that the surface of the barrel has been overly cleaned, you can see it has some light to moderate pitting on the surface but some one has rubbed it down to a silvery grey color leaving no color or patina. My question is, is there a safe way that I can help the color of the barrel looking a bit older without faking anything ?  I don't intend on selling the musket or trying to fool anyone. I would just like get the barrel surface looking older.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 05:09:13 AM by longrifle »

Offline Lucky R A

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • In Costume
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2012, 04:25:28 PM »
You can use either Birchwood Casey's cold blue or their Brass Black.  The cold bluing will give a slightly blueish cast to the metal when rubbed back where the Brass Black will impart more of a gray color. You will need to thoroughly degrease the barrel/parts before using the coloring solution(s).  If there is an initial problem getting the color to take, scrub the part lightly with a piece of scotch brite pad soaked in the solution.  Make the part much darker than you desire for the finish product and then rub back with 0000 steel wool.  Make the wear areas lighter and leave the color dark around sights and other obstructions this is where the art comes into the project. It is always good to have a photo of an original or an original to use as a guide to where you want to go..Good luck   Ron
"The highest reward that God gives us for good work is the ability to do better work."  - Elbert Hubbard

longrifle

  • Guest
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2012, 10:51:58 PM »
Thanks for the reply and for the information.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9758
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 05:16:53 PM »
I recently picked up a old musket that is in fairly good shape the lock works and the stock is solid. The problem is that the surface of the barrel has been overly cleaned, you can see it has some light to moderate pitting on the surface but some one has rubbed it down to a silvery grey color leaving no color or patina. My question is, is there a safe way that I can help the color of the barrel looking a bit older without faking anything ?  I don't intend on selling the musket or trying to fool anyone. I would just like get the barrel surface looking older.

Plug the muzzle and vent with a wooden plug, degrease and put on a coat of cold brown and let it set for a day or two. Wash with cool water and rub with a piece of rough cloth like burlap. Wash again. If it looks OK then oil lightly or not.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline George Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 03:19:07 AM »
What kind of musket is it? Most Civil War muskets were left in the white. You can ruin the value of an original gun by coloring the metal. The silver gray color may in fact be the patina. Post some pictures.

Centershot

longrifle

  • Guest
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 04:03:20 AM »
I am glad to see your reply the musket is a Pattern 1853 Enfield 577 Cal. I really wondered if the barrel was originally supposed to be in the white when I took the barrel out of the stock I noticed the under side of the barrel was really white metal. You can tell the barrel above the wood been rusty at one time and has been cleaned leaving the metal brightened to a silvery gray with scattered light to moderate pitting. It also has traces of rifling in the bore which is mostly worn smooth it appears that it has been shot a lot. I guess I should leave it like it is then is that correct ? The bottom of the barrel has several chisel cut X's and roman numeral markings also I have been told these type of marking sometimes indicate Confederate use. The lock is marked with a crown behind the hammer and the date 1861 in front of the hammer there is also X markings in the barrel channel and roman numeral marking's. I would be glad to hear you input on this.   

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 05:27:57 PM »
What Dan said, is what I would do.

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 05:23:24 AM »
...The bottom of the barrel has several chisel cut X's and roman numeral markings also I have been told these type of marking sometimes indicate Confederate use. The lock is marked with a crown behind the hammer and the date 1861 in front of the hammer there is also X markings in the barrel channel and roman numeral marking's. I would be glad to hear you input on this.   
The hacked in Xs and Roman Numerals are often assembly marks used to identify parts as belonging together when a gun was taken apart during production. For example when the barrel & lock were removed fro final finishing of the stock.
Later many factory guns (Colt revolvers, etc.) started putting the serial number on most of the parts.
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

longrifle

  • Guest
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 02:02:57 PM »
I have also read about the use of the X 's and Roman Numerals being used when guns were being reassembled.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 02:05:07 PM by longrifle »

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 04:09:34 AM »
I had an 1842 Springfield that had been cleaned off, (yeah, I admit it, did it when I was young and stupider than now), and it would have been issued in the white. I browned the iron on it, and put tung/lindseed oil on the wood and today it looks about as it did when I got it for $1.50 from a neighbor. So, the advice given above is good counsel and you would do well to follow it, (from a satisfied customer). 
Dick

longrifle

  • Guest
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2012, 05:50:53 AM »
Thank you all for your reply's. I am in no big hurry to do anything, so I think I will leave it as is until I have studied more photo's of original Pattern 1853's before desiding if I am going to do anything, it is clean and I wouldn't want to do anything that might make things worse.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:56:23 AM by longrifle »

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2003
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2012, 06:35:18 PM »
It also has traces of rifling in the bore which is mostly worn smooth it appears that it has been shot a lot. I guess I should leave it like it is then is that correct ?

Enfield used what I think was called "Progressive Rifling" which was deeper at the breach and tapered to very shallow at the muzzle. It may not be as worn as you think.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2012, 11:15:53 PM »
Longrifle,

Wow can we start arguments on what was the “correct” original finish on barrels of Enfield Rifle Muskets BECAUSE there were so many of them made by so many makers over a HUGE number of years and they are still being made in Darra, Pakistan. 

Though there are exceptions to the rule, generally the guns the British Government purchased had to be “Interchangeable Pattern” Enfields and originally had blued barrels that often have turned to brown from age/patina.  Some NON Interchangeable patterns were also made for the British East India Company as well as Interchangeable pattern guns.  “Export guns” could be Interchangeable or not and many were blue, at least in the early stages of the War.  Around the time of the UnCivil War, Interchangeable pattern Enfields cost around $22.00 and a NON Interchangeable gun cost around $ 17.00.  (Prices did vary.)  Enfield Rifle copies were also made by both the North and the South, some Interchangeable and some not.  Blued barrels were more common on the better copies, though they were also purchased “in the white” to save money and get guns in the hands of the troops faster.   

To top that off in the early stages of the War, both Northern and Southern Commanders actually had their troops polish off the bluing as barrels “in the white” were considered better to quickly ensure if the troops were properly taking care of their muskets and not allowing them to rust.  (It was also considered to “look” prettier.)  HOWEVER, Southrons learned to look for the shine off the musket barrels to show where large formations of Federals were advancing.  Many Federals did not realize this until they asked Southrons  late in the war or afterwards.. 

I have been privileged to study an original Confederate Ordnance Manual of 1863 that was a direct copy for the most part AND they gave CREDIT to the original Authors and the Original U.S. Ordnance Manual of 1861.  Found that a little surprising, but it was well in keeping of what they thought was the correct thing to do then.  One HUGE change in the CS Ordnance Manual was that it was STRICTLY forbidden to change the finish of barrels and locks.  IOW, if it was issued as blued, browned, or in the white – it was ordered to be kept in that condition and not have the blue or brown abraded off by the troops.  Of course even when the Commanders and Troops followed that order, the original blue or brown finish was worn or abraded when they cleaned them or in field use.

I have seen Orignal Enflields with barrels that were “in the white” or browned or “Rust Patina” on the outside, but still had original blue on the underside of the barrel.  So generally speaking, one of the better ways to tell what the original color of the barrel was – is to take the barrel off and see if there is still traces or sometimes (surprisingly) a fair amount of blue on the bottom OR a somewhat even brown color from the original blue color oxidizing over the years..  If it was British Government owned, it normally was blue, though with a few somewhat rare exceptions.

Oh, one final note:  There was an organization of Union Veterans called the GAR or Grand Army of the Republic, that was like an early VFW.  A surprising number of original musket barrels and bands, bayonets, swords and other original pieces were Nickle Plated after the War for use in their Parades and gatherings.  They also pulled apart muskets and shined them up all over at times when they were not plated.  . 

Gus

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13269
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: A question about patina
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 12:45:39 AM »

Quote
Wow can we start arguments on what was the “correct” original finish on barrels of Enfield Rifle Muskets

I don't believe this qualifies as an "argument". More of a discussion and exchange of knowledge.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?