Author Topic: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!  (Read 16259 times)

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2012, 12:46:20 AM »
The difference in welding heat between iron and steel is slight, 50 degrees maybe. With thin stuff you have to keep your eye on the irons in the fire. When you touch the joint together and they stick, then you whip then over to the anvil and gently tack them together with some fast, lite strokes with a lite hammer. One in the center and one on each edge. You will feel them fuse through your hickory handle. Don't wait for sparks or you will burn it up. If necessary, move the anvil closer to the fire and make two pair of togs for the job.
                          Danny

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2012, 04:05:51 PM »
Quote
The difference in welding heat between iron and steel is slight, 50 degrees maybe. With thin stuff you have to keep your eye on the irons in the fire. When you touch the joint together and they stick, then you whip then over to the anvil and gently tack them together with some fast, lite strokes with a lite hammer. One in the center and one on each edge. You will feel them fuse through your hickory handle. Don't wait for sparks or you will burn it up. If necessary, move the anvil closer to the fire and make two pair of togs for the job.
                          Danny
I am no where near trying to forge weld these type buttplates but what intrigues me is how in the world did they manage to align, hold the two aligned pieces and keep them at welding temperatures long enough to weld them together! And also the thin metal problem. The original is .120" thick metal.
Dennis
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 04:08:35 PM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2012, 05:02:55 AM »
Dennis, You hold a pair of tongs in each hand grasping each part. When you bring the 2 bits to the anvil or swage block you hold the bottom part with the left hand, top part, drop the right hand tongs and pick up the well placed hammer and wack wack wack, your done. Before all of this get the fire clean, coked and reducing and practice once or twice with cold parts. Next heat, flux, bring her up slowly and watch the parts get that wet yellow white sticky look the tappity tap.
      Danny
 Some folks weld by smell ;D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 05:03:57 AM by dannybb55 »

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2012, 07:20:45 AM »
  Wrought actually welds at a higher heat than mild steel.

  You can rivet buttplate or guard pieces together to hold in position for welding as you might do when brazing.  There's a reason you don't see people doing buttplates like this, it's not easy. Thin material doesn't take much to knock out of shape. Have seen very few originals done this way.
  Another variation - An original forge welded crescent heeled buttplate I examined appeared to have been formed out of a single piece which was folded down at the joint of the comb and heel, and the open joints along the sides welded shut. It was rather small and made of quite thin material, under 1/16".   
 

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2012, 01:20:54 PM »
The difference in temps is probably only one or two pumps of the bellows tiller, hardly noticeable in a forge. The colour is the same though, that is al l that matters. It isn't much easier than welding 12 penny nails into chain. Where's the fun if everything is easy?

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2012, 03:56:53 PM »
What I meant was, looking inside and out there is no evidence of brass/copper, the inside joint has a light rust patina, no brass/copper. I am sure its forge welded. There is absolutely no evidence of a rivet, clean joint forge welded joint. Just wondered how in the world they held the two pieces together in perfect alignment long enough to forge weld them.

The only thing that it might be is in the very top of the "heel" the metal may be folded which would have held the two pieces together. But all I can say is the man that made it sure knew how to forge metal! I will try to take a couple of close-up photos and post them.
Dennis

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2012, 04:12:29 PM »
Here are some close-ups, not the best, but the best my camera will do on close-ups.
I really would like to be able to learn to make a copy of this buttplate and would like to figure out how it was made. Right now I tend to think it was cut from one piece of metal, folded at the heel and probably forge welded but I am not sure of this.
Dennis











« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 04:16:28 PM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2012, 04:18:36 PM »
 I have no means to check the actual temperature with my set up but it's my understanding that there can be a diference of a few hundred degrees between some steels and iron. I think most who do this kind of welding would agree that there's a noticeable color difference between the two, although in my experience it's not as extreme as some say - I often hear guys describe the welding color of iron as "white", what I see is a good bright yellow. But when it comes down to it we'll all see the colors a little differently, as long as you can recognize the right conditions and achieve a sound weld that's all that matters.
  Where's the fun if everything is easy - I agree 100%. Gun building wouldn't interest me near as much if it was easy. When I said it wasn't easy to weld thin material into a buttplate, it was more to offer an explanation for why it may not be seen too often on old guns.
  A couple I have seen were of very thin material - anybody who has done even a little forge welding has seen how much material is lost to scaling at welding heat, so perhaps they were initially a bit thicker. But even so, some would have likely been thin enough to form cold. In the case of the buttplate with the folded joint I mentioned in my last post, I have wondered if it may have been shaped and folded cold, and then the joint welded and finished over a form / mandrel.
    

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 04:26:21 PM »
Quote
In the case of the buttplate with the folded joint I mentioned in my last post, I have wondered if it may have been shaped and folded cold, and then the joint welded and finished over a form / mandrel.
     
I can not help but believe this one was done that way. The metal is about .120" thick.
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 06:15:49 PM »
Dennis,
You might be able to acid etch the metal to better determine the manufacture.  I have used muriatic acid to strip old gun parts and an old floburt barrel.  You just need to neutralize the acid later.  If you rinse the metal with just water, the acid itself with continue to work and rust it back very quickly.  You can use baking soda.  Another method that I found by accident is to burn it off.  When you put a flame to the metal the flame will turn green.  Continue to heat the metal until the flame goes back to normal, then quench in water or oil based on your desired finsihed look.  I believe that Wallace Gusler esed acid etching to determine the type of weld used on barrels during his early days. 

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 11:28:41 PM »
Well here it is, not exactly like the original. I didn't get enough curve in it. I had enough in it but I lost some of curve trying to get the width a little wider. It will do for now, got my swage blocks in so I will be making a couple of more to get the hang of it.




Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 11:42:05 PM »
Never underestimate the power of production tooling. A hardie stake could have been used for the final weld and wrought iron responds splendidly to cold work. Look what medieval armourers did with iron sheet. It could be that the smith used a top and bottom swage and forged the heel first and then made the rest or maybe forged the plate like a fowler plate and then swaged the sharper heel. I like when the history books say " Easily forged iron parts"
               
  Sweet buttplate, does it feel good to your shoulder?

Offline bgf

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 12:11:07 AM »
 A couple I have seen were of very thin material - anybody who has done even a little forge welding has seen how much material is lost to scaling at welding heat, so perhaps they were initially a bit thicker. But even so, some would have likely been thin enough to form cold. In the case of the buttplate with the folded joint I mentioned in my last post, I have wondered if it may have been shaped and folded cold, and then the joint welded and finished over a form / mandrel.
  

I'm reluctant to contribute as my experience is one iron buttplate and it was unjoined two piece, but I did find that with 1/16 material, the buttplate formed easily cold over the preshaped (roughly with a rasp) butt after it was screwed on.  It was later trimmed off flush with the stock with a file  Any gaps there now were from finish before refitting!  The joint was not welded or brazed at all (since the original I was following was 2 pieces), but it doesn't seem like a big difference in the way it went together.  The "thin" material is quite strong and sufficient since the wood is basically supporting it 100% underneath, while the iron (actually steel) adds structural integrity and abrasion resistance.  I inlet the comb piece first, as it added a lot of strength to the point of the heel when shaping the buttplate.  The reason I did things this way is because I had seen a lot more horses shod than buttplates forged -- and I got to thinking there must be something related in the terminology of "toe" and "heel" :).

I think that thin material could be worked in one piece (for extension and plate) either cold or hot with some remedial welding (on the seam/corner which might need to be mitered), but I've not tried it.  PS -- now that I think about it, if the miter was a little small, the overlap could be used for the welding.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 12:22:32 AM by bgf »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 12:24:34 AM »
Quote
Sweet buttplate, does it feel good to your shoulder?
Yes it does but much of that is probably self bias ;D
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

omark

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2012, 07:44:09 PM »
just a thought from someone that knows absolutely nothing about the subject. but would it be possible to rivet the 2 pieces together using steel rivets, then welding them into the plate while welding the joint? seems the rivets would be pretty hard to detect and would seem to be just welded.   mark

dannybb55

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2012, 11:43:44 PM »
Several hundred years ago smiths would countersink both sides of the joint, rivet them with soft iron rivets and file the joints flush. The joint would disappear. That and some turtle wax and the knight could go Mach 1 without afterburners. ;D
            It's is a nice piece of forge magic.
                Danny

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Forging a Virginia iron buttplate ---Questions from a green novice!
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 06:52:21 AM »
Mark, you are correct , but keep in mind the shank of the rivet would still show inside the joint.