Author Topic: Touch hole liners  (Read 12864 times)

Offline Eric Smith

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Touch hole liners
« on: April 23, 2012, 03:07:46 AM »
I hear a lot about touch hole liners, but what I want to know is are there any historical references to them, or are they a modern creation? What is PC for a 1700s to 1830s gun?
Eric Smith

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 04:09:55 AM »
Depends on where the gun was made, when, and what the purpose of the gun was.  I don't know of any military muskets in the 1700's which had touch hole liners when newly made. There is no data supporting things were different on newly made American made rifles in the period.  However, touch hole liners were used on the finest European and some very fine American arms of the period.  When touch holes burned out on a colonial or American rifle, the gunsmith had decisions to make.  Was the breech still good or was the powder chamber burnt out and the threads in bad shape?  If the breech was good, the touchhole was dilled out, threaded and a bushing was fitted, trimmed off and drilled for the touchhole.  We don't know what proportion of these "touch hole liners" were concave on the inside as modern touch hole liners, and fancy touch hole liners on higher end guns of the period were.

If the breech was shot out when the touchhole became too large, then the barrel was cut off at the breech past the powder chamber, re-threaded, a breechplug re-fitted, and the barrel was set back in the stock and a new touch hole drilled.  The fore-end of the gun was cut off, new nose cap made, underlugs might be moved, etc. The muzzleloading revival centered around target shooting and folks recognized that in the late flint period, touch hole liners gave faster ignition.  They became established and for years nobody questioned that contemporary rifles patterned after originals in excruciating detail were being made with touchlole liners that did not exist on originds when new.  This is market driven.  Folks want the best ignition possible, and a concave inner chamber and a thin web do that.
Andover, Vermont

DB

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 08:31:47 AM »
How many of you forgo the liner and just drill a touchhole? Just for the record, how many shot/ignitions would it take to "burn out" a touch hole drilled into a barrel made of todays steel?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 02:46:50 PM »
I use one of Tom Snyder's tools and drill an interior coned touch hole in the barrel. No liner.  Works great.  How long will it last??  But then as Rich suggested a liner can be used to repair it....
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 06:02:02 PM »
I've converted to the inside coning of the barrel using Tom Snyder's tool.  I think that w/o any coning, it would take 20,000 shots or more, or a fair amount of neglect, or both, to burn out a touchhole drilled straight through the wall of a modern steel barre.  If coned and the web is thin, probably half that.  I never use anything harder than copper wire for a vent pick.  I think more vents get buggered out than burned out.  The popular steel, forged, square and twisty "vent picks" are more like reamers in my view.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 06:15:31 PM »
What size drill bit do you use for a touchhole? 1/16th?
Eric Smith

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 06:21:19 PM »
I hear a lot about touch hole liners, but what I want to know is are there any historical references to them, or are they a modern creation? What is PC for a 1700s to 1830s gun?

Before stainless steel they were made of Gold and then Platinum after circa 1800.
These are seen on better grade American arms. Simeon North Pistols and guns by Haslett. Guns by both with liners are shown in "Steel Canvas".
Others as well I am sure.
But the low grade guns like Kentucky rifles did not usually have them.
There is a difference in reliability between a properly made and installed liner and a "plain" vent.

Dan
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 08:35:22 PM »
What size drill bit do you use for a touchhole? 1/16th?

that's a good start.  then open a little more if needed.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 09:01:19 PM »
So, to expand on the subject just a bit, and to clarify, rifles made by J. Dickert, W. Haga, Bonewitz, and Peter Gonter, H. Rupp,  would not have touchhole liners? Period correct for them would be just a drilled hole?
Eric Smith

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 10:04:34 PM »
Yup.  But whether those makers coned the inside of the barrel - don't know.
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 11:44:46 PM »
Yup.  But whether those makers coned the inside of the barrel - don't know.

By coning, you mean the touch hole right, like the tool Tom Snyder makes. Not the muzzle.
Eric Smith

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 02:58:17 AM »
By coning we all mean Tom Snyder's tool or the one in one of the JHAT booklets, to cone the inside of the touch hole.

As far as I have ever heard there is no evidence of an original "common" Kentucky longrifle having  a touch hole liner when new.  There is no doubt that some high end guns of the period in the colonies or new nation and in Europe had touch hole liners installed.  As Dan mentioned these were usually of precious metal, gold or platinum.

Rebushing a burned out touch hole was common, this was discussed recently.  It is not well documented whether the rebushed (in iron) touch hole "liners" were coned on the inside.  So the presence of an obvious threaded iron bushing on a well used American flintlock is not normally considered first work, nor is it clear that it resembles modern touchhole liners, which are great for ignition, reliability and top performance.  And modern touch hole liners are available in steel which blends nicely with many barrels.  The choices one makes with using or not using touch hole liners on contemporary builds depends on what one wants!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 02:58:52 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 10:06:15 AM »
By coning we all mean Tom Snyder's tool or the one in one of the JHAT booklets, to cone the inside of the touch hole.

As far as I have ever heard there is no evidence of an original "common" Kentucky longrifle having  a touch hole liner when new.  There is no doubt that some high end guns of the period in the colonies or new nation and in Europe had touch hole liners installed.  As Dan mentioned these were usually of precious metal, gold or platinum.

Rebushing a burned out touch hole was common, this was discussed recently.  It is not well documented whether the rebushed (in iron) touch hole "liners" were coned on the inside.  So the presence of an obvious threaded iron bushing on a well used American flintlock is not normally considered first work, nor is it clear that it resembles modern touchhole liners, which are great for ignition, reliability and top performance.  And modern touch hole liners are available in steel which blends nicely with many barrels.  The choices one makes with using or not using touch hole liners on contemporary builds depends on what one wants!


Thanks for clearing that up Rich.
Eric Smith

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 06:15:00 PM »
Quote
I hear a lot about touch hole liners, but what I want to know is are there any historical references to them, or are they a modern creation?
The Committee of 1631 established Rates for Gunmakers in England.  One of the operations on that list was:

For a touch hole liner screw'd.........  -- -- 6d

It was obviously a common operation that already existed prior to the publishing of those rates which would put it into the match and wheel lock era.  It did not just miraculously appear when English gunmakers started using precious metals to make liners.  Progress dictated that the superior properties of gold and platinum made them suitable for use.  Prior to that, they would have been a simple bushing that was screwed into the barrel and a new hole drilled.

Since the preponderance of early settlers were English, there is no reason to believe that they would not have taken their guns to a smith when the touch hole burned out.  Properly done, an iron liner would have been an invivisble repair.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »
A threaded insert for repair of a burned out touch hole is such a simple and basic procedure, no evidence at all needs to be presented to believe it to have been common practice in my view.  Further, there are a few longrifles that come to mind where these can be seen.  These may have never been completely invisible and with corrosion their presence could be further revealed.

Offline JDK

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2012, 11:57:39 PM »
.....and there would be no way to tell on all of those guns that had been converted or reconverted.  Relining would seem simpler than setting the barrel back and obviously more economical than barrel replacement.  J.D.
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2012, 12:25:01 AM »
Ok, now I'm confused. Let me ask another way. How many antique rifles that exist today show evidence of a touchhole liner, Kindigs rifles and others?
Eric Smith

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2012, 01:20:57 AM »
Quote
How many antique rifles that exist today show evidence of a touchhole liner, Kindigs rifles and others?

The question is irrelevant:
1.  The process has been in common use as a repair for centuries.
2.  No one has examined ALL antique rifles that exist today.
Dave Kanger

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2012, 04:51:22 AM »
Ok, now I'm confused. Let me ask another way. How many antique rifles that exist today show evidence of a touchhole liner, Kindigs rifles and others?

How many?  Every single one that has been reconverted from percussion to flintlock, or was originally percussion and has been retro-flintlocked.  In other words when a gun was converted to percussion from flint, they drilled out the touchhole and threaded the hole for a drum.  When during restoration a gun is converted back to flint, that threaded hole from the drum is filled with a threaded rod and a touch hole is re-drilled.  So it looks like a touch hole liner was used, but it's really a drum-hole filler.  Since maybe 2/3 of antique rifles that were originally flint were percussed at some time (wild guess), then at least 2/3 would show evidence of a "touch hole liner".

The next question is how many that were always flint had to be re-bushed at some point.  Only those that got shot a lot.
Not sure where the confusion lies.  For clarity you might ask how many were re-bushed after the original touchhole burned out.  Second question, how many had their barrels shortened and set back.  Third question, how many had a touch hole liner installed when newly built.  That would cover the possibilities.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 04:52:43 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2012, 05:09:35 AM »
Quote
For clarity you might ask how many were re-bushed after the original touchhole burned out.  Second question, how many had their barrels shortened and set back.  Third question, how many had a touch hole liner installed when newly built.  That would cover the possibilities.
Rich,
Still irrelevant, because no one knows, nor could the answer ever be ascertained.  The existing sample is too large to examine and looking at a smaller sample would provide a statistical answer relevant only to that sample.  No clarity would be evident.
Dave Kanger

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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2012, 05:17:19 AM »
I agree, nobody is all-knowing about the existing antique longrifles and we are not sure the existing ones are representative of "all originals".  A lot of questions are unanswerable.

Here's a riddle for you Eric:  What proportion of original Bucks County guns had side-opening patchboxes?  By "Bucks County gun" I mean a gun made in current Bucks county during the flintlock period.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2012, 09:44:34 AM »
So, to expand on the subject just a bit, and to clarify, rifles made by J. Dickert, W. Haga, Bonewitz, and Peter Gonter, H. Rupp,  would not have touchhole liners? Period correct for them would be just a drilled hole?

Unless "bushed" due to gas cutting surely a "plain" vent. New vents WERE installed in guns. Its documeted. What they looked like?
We also have to remember that a great many surviving flintlock rifles were converted to percussion then reconverted to flint so we have really little idea what was really done when they were new or modifications before being "percussed" since it was all destroyed.

I think there is something everyone needs to understand here. The Kentucky rifle, on average, was not a high quality gun when compared to guns and rifles from Europe or even some of the guns from some places in the east like Philly or Baltimore. They were not "best quality" firearms. Nor were they made for landed gentry (for the most part), "peers" or royalty.

Dan
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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2012, 02:10:47 PM »
They were the best that could be made at the time and place of there manufacture, usually by men that were good all around smiths. The European pieces were generally made by piece workers and subs. It is always easier to make a trigger guard if all that you do is make stacks of trigger guards. Even Ezekiel Baker, who made complete pattern rifles for the Pattern Room probably did no other smith work on a daily basis like any small town gunsmith could do. And BTW there was some really crude work done in Europe also. There are whole arsenals of muskets still on their racks in Europe and many are very crude with Draw knife and scraper marks on the stocks, vents burned out, vice marks on the breeches, hammer marks on the tangs and trigger guards, locks held on by nails, etc.
 No barrel liners anywhere but I bet that they ignite on demand.
                      Cheers,
                        Danny

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2012, 04:09:28 PM »
So, to expand on the subject just a bit, and to clarify, rifles made by J. Dickert, W. Haga, Bonewitz, and Peter Gonter, H. Rupp,  would not have touchhole liners? Period correct for them would be just a drilled hole?

Unless "bushed" due to gas cutting surely a "plain" vent. New vents WERE installed in guns. Its documeted. What they looked like?
We also have to remember that a great many surviving flintlock rifles were converted to percussion then reconverted to flint so we have really little idea what was really done when they were new or modifications before being "percussed" since it was all destroyed.

I think there is something everyone needs to understand here. The Kentucky rifle, on average, was not a high quality gun when compared to guns and rifles from Europe or even some of the guns from some places in the east like Philly or Baltimore. They were not "best quality" firearms. Nor were they made for landed gentry (for the most part), "peers" or royalty.

Dan

We have some nice long rifles in the Huntington Museum of Art and the one credited to Daniel Boone is a superb example of an unused one while the Simon Kenton rifle next to it shows use and wasn't a high grade gun to begin with.
Upscale American muzzle loaders apparently did not start showing up until well into the percussion era and most of them were from the Northeastern areas. Tom Rowe's book on American Percussion Schuetzen Rifles is full of them.
Our long rifle makers of today have so many advantages over those of the 18th century that to compare the products of that era with the products of today is almost a waste of effort.
We have better health,eyesight,lighting and last but not least,tools of every description plus materials of known analysis and their benefits.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Touch hole liners
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2012, 05:28:25 PM »
They were the best that could be made at the time and place of there manufacture, usually by men that were good all around smiths. The European pieces were generally made by piece workers and subs. It is always easier to make a trigger guard if all that you do is make stacks of trigger guards. Even Ezekiel Baker, who made complete pattern rifles for the Pattern Room probably did no other smith work on a daily basis like any small town gunsmith could do. And BTW there was some really crude work done in Europe also. There are whole arsenals of muskets still on their racks in Europe and many are very crude with Draw knife and scraper marks on the stocks, vents burned out, vice marks on the breeches, hammer marks on the tangs and trigger guards, locks held on by nails, etc.
 No barrel liners anywhere but I bet that they ignite on demand.
                      Cheers,
                        Danny

I did not think we were discussing military arms.
Look at a the external finish on a S&W "Victory Model" vs an otherwise identical M&P  revolver made in 1938 for the civilian market.  Yet they were made on the same equipment by the same people. I doubt that the S&W employees were happy doing this level of work. But it kept the company from going bankrupt at the eve of WW-II.  The INTERNALS were properly polished just like the civilian models, they were "right" where it counted. Some the the Webleys of the same era had even cruder exteriors looks like 80 grit belt sander polish. But a crudely finished revolver would shoot the enemy just as well as a well polished one and at the time this was the key point. 

A few years back a friend of mine was looking at handguns in the local guns store, specifically the rounded snag free things that are popular with some. He states, to paraphrase,  "I spent too much time trying to keep edges sharp to buy something with a botched job of polishing".

I guess my question would be, "why would I make a poorly finished gun if I did not have to for some reason beyond my control?"
What was the opinion of the poorly finished guns by the people MAKING them. But then the ruler was likely not paying much for them either.

I see no point in of celebrating mediocrity.

Why would Baker, for example, make a barrel when he could order one cheaper than he could make it.
A great many American rifles had locks and barrels made somewhere besides the gunstockers shop. The castings were probably purchased as well.
So you see "Virginia" rifles with "Dickert" buttplates. Or is it the other way around?
Barrels and locks from England and Germany were in shop inventories in PA by the 1750s.
The idea that the American Gunsmith made everything "in house" is a myth. They bought a lot of parts. Birmingham was making gun parts by the ship load by the time of the American Revolution and exporting them anyplace there was a market.
It was cheaper to buy than to make.
I like to make things in house when I can or as needed for some project. But locks from Chambers, for example, are so nicely done that I see little point in making something they can furnish that only needs polish.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine