Author Topic: Sperm Whale Oil article  (Read 17147 times)

Offline heelerau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2012, 02:28:49 AM »
I was at a differential class at the old Hinsdale GM training center in 75  and the instructor was discussing what to use to stop limited slip chattering. He said that whale oil was no longer used as the guy that used to "manipulate" the whales had died and no one had been found to replace him. Actual truth was that whale oil had been outlawed sometime before that and selling or buying it would land you in jail and facing a hefty fine. I use spit when I can make it and wswfluid when I cant. For hunting loads I use mink oil. FRJ
What does mink oil come from?

Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline Longknife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2048
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 06:30:23 PM »
Ed Hamberg

Offline heelerau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 02:03:20 AM »
Thanks for that !

Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Vomitus

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 08:50:58 PM »
  "What does mink oil come from?"
From the "mink" glands of a Mtn. Lion.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:51:55 PM by Leatherbelly »

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2012, 11:00:10 PM »
I donít understand what his tests prove other than the specific characteristics of the rifles tested.  To draw a conclusion on his limited testing of these two rifles is fine if and only of you do not attempt to apply those results to other rifles unless your testing is longer and more scientific.  
There was an article that compared ten modern rifles of differing calibers and declared that the Weatherby Vanguard was the most accurate out of the box.  That statement, of course, started a virtual war over on another board with one fellow stating that he can remember when another author attempted a comparison test and after shooting 8,000 rounds the experts still accused him of insufficient testing.
I think this guy needs to get back out there and start testing again and heís burning daylight.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 11:03:19 PM by crawdad »

Offline LH

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 222
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2012, 04:34:43 PM »
I agree with the other guys here who dont put much stock in a limited sample size and a one time test.  A series of tests with multiple ten shot groups is needed before any proof will be evident.   You're always going to get some results no matter how limited your sample size, but getting results that will repeat requires more shooting.  Dutch Shoultz's method did not repeat for me in half a dozen tries but I know alot of folks who swear it worked.  But when I ask them if they went out and tried to repeat the test,  not one did.  If you shot 10 10 shot groups all with the exact same load,  one of them is going to be smaller than the rest.  Alot of tests fall into the "significant but meaningless"  category.  It just takes a whale of alot of shooting to prove something like whether or not patch lube has any effect on accuracy.  (how'd yall like that "whale"  I slipped in there?) ;D

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 07:49:08 AM »
In academic terms, the study is flawed because the tester knew the lubes being used. Should be done blind. Only problem with that is it's a lot harder to see a target. :-\

Studies like this are a waste of time and bandwidth since they get questioned and denied up, down, and sideways by folks who have never attempted anything close to the methods of the writers. Discussions on this forum alone are convincing proof of that. When was the last time you heard everyone here agree on any point? :o







"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

hlary

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 04:43:38 PM »
Now there's a point I can finally agree with......Thanks Kermit!   ;D

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 04:56:57 PM »
I disagree.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 04:16:47 PM by pathfinder »
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. Itís works!

BigDad

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 07:43:10 PM »
I agree that the sample size is to small to be useful. Testing should be done with with more groups, more shooters, and more guns.  Someone mentioned doing it "blind".  Been doin' that fer a long time!  Someone else could load the guns.  It should be done on days with different conditions of temperature and humidity.  There should also be a "control" group using the same lube at all times.  Kind of complicated.  I don't think you could get enough people to commit to doing it but it might be fun if they did.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6534
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2012, 03:28:54 PM »
unfortunately naive experimental design.... leads to more smoke and not much light.
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. Ė William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9749
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2012, 04:13:05 PM »
I was at a differential class at the old Hinsdale GM training center in 75  and the instructor was discussing what to use to stop limited slip chattering. He said that whale oil was no longer used as the guy that used to "manipulate" the whales had died and no one had been found to replace him. Actual truth was that whale oil had been outlawed sometime before that and selling or buying it would land you in jail and facing a hefty fine. I use spit when I can make it and wswfluid when I cant. For hunting loads I use mink oil. FRJ
What does mink oil come from?

Cheers

Gordon

The stuff I used on my shoes when I was a kid came off the Mink Dad caught. And smelled like it.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9749
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2012, 04:16:26 PM »
In academic terms, the study is flawed because the tester knew the lubes being used. Should be done blind. Only problem with that is it's a lot harder to see a target. :-\

Studies like this are a waste of time and bandwidth since they get questioned and denied up, down, and sideways by folks who have never attempted anything close to the methods of the writers. Discussions on this forum alone are convincing proof of that. When was the last time you heard everyone here agree on any point? :o










Not a waste of time. Just about any topic posted brings out knowledge through discussion.
No discussion, no forum.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9749
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2012, 06:53:55 PM »
I agree with the other guys here who dont put much stock in a limited sample size and a one time test.  A series of tests with multiple ten shot groups is needed before any proof will be evident.   You're always going to get some results no matter how limited your sample size, but getting results that will repeat requires more shooting.  Dutch Shoultz's method did not repeat for me in half a dozen tries but I know alot of folks who swear it worked.  But when I ask them if they went out and tried to repeat the test,  not one did.  If you shot 10 10 shot groups all with the exact same load,  one of them is going to be smaller than the rest.  Alot of tests fall into the "significant but meaningless"  category.  It just takes a whale of alot of shooting to prove something like whether or not patch lube has any effect on accuracy.  (how'd yall like that "whale"  I slipped in there?) ;D

The smallest and largest are generally not important its the AVERAGE of a large number of shots. In the 19th century there were people shooting 100 shot targets.
I have a 15 pound 45-100 Sharps that is capable of throwing a shot out 3-4 feet at 900-1000 yards (or less) due to a small error in holding. Usually from concentrating on the wind. If the recoil feels a little funny the shot will be a flier.  Even at 15 pounds with a 100 gr of powder and 530 gr bullet the gun moves before the bullet clears.
The fact that ML shooters ALWAYS change position from shot to shot when shooting from a rest is a factor in shooting small groups. Changing position in a modern BR match where the shots all go through the same hole will usually loose the match. I have seen people loose long string records this way in BPCR Silhouette.
But I seldom see any mention here of consistent shooting position here. Partly, I assume because the ML simply does not allow it to the extent a breechloader does.
I know that almost any lube will work fairly well. Its up to the shooter to do the research that will give best accuracy.
For example I am pretty confidant that a 50 caliber rifle with a .005 bore ball, a .018 patch and 1/2 ball weight of FFF (Swiss powder may allow a 10% or more reduction) with Neatsfoot or Sperm Whale oil will shoot well enough for hunting and the vast majority of the shooting done here. But experimentation may show that 5-15 grs change in powder or a switch to FFF might shoot better. Some 50s may shoot better with as much as 110. But I used about 1/2 ball weight as a starter for 45-50 caliber and 100 for a 54. Why? Its been proven over time that these charges work pretty well.
The old "one grain per caliber" formula will not work very well over 40 caliber and is marginal even then. Its a "squirrel rifle" formual 32-36 gr in a 32-36 will do pretty well. Of course my son shot his first deer with a 45 using 45 gr of FFF. Killed deer dead....
Lubes? If Sperm Whale oil was readily available I think a lot of people would use it today    just as they did in the past.
I am using and liking beef tallow right now for hunting, triple  boiled to clean it well. It seems to be completely non-corrosive ( guns left loaded for weeks and the ball pulled) and handles fouling well.
The value in discussions of this type is to get people to think of other ways of doing things.
Disagreement?
I am a member of a Gunmakers Guild. We have a number of people that qualify as "Masters". We have about that many different ways of doing things as we have makers. So the discussions are useful to us all in that we learn other ways of doing things.
This forum serves the same purpose.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline heelerau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2012, 10:32:45 PM »
Well, I have tonight ordered some mink oil from Track, I will be most interested to see if it works down under here in Westernn Australia. I have been curious about it for awhile, I do have plenty of neatsfoot, but am not that keen to try it at this stage.  If mink oil doesnt work in any of my rifles  ;D, will leave it on the Minister of War and Finances Night stand and see if it works as anti wrinkle cream !!!!       and then the fight started .


Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Online hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5312
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2012, 11:34:26 PM »
I was at a differential class at the old Hinsdale GM training center in 75  and the instructor was discussing what to use to stop limited slip chattering. He said that whale oil was no longer used as the guy that used to "manipulate" the whales had died and no one had been found to replace him. Actual truth was that whale oil had been outlawed sometime before that and selling or buying it would land you in jail and facing a hefty fine. I use spit when I can make it and wswfluid when I cant. For hunting loads I use mink oil. FRJ
What does mink oil come from?

Cheers



Loose women.....or am I thinking of "minx"?

Gordon
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Online hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5312
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2012, 11:37:29 PM »
I personally prefer 5 shot groups, with 3 or 4 consectutive groups being necessary for statistical stability. I do use 3 shot groups when roughing in the sights at 25 yards, the move to 5 shot groups at 50 yards for load development as 25 yards is useless for that, if shooting further is expected.



In the real world I suppose just shooting 3 shots would do it.  I've rarely got more than that during deer season.  But we all like to show what our show ponies will do.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline heelerau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2012, 12:19:43 AM »
Hanshi,
           I must be getting old!!

Cheers ;D
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2012, 12:35:45 AM »
Since my dislexia (or inability to maintain concentration for long periods of time) won't allow 10 shot groups, I make multiple 5 shot groups satisfy my accuracy needs.  A mere 5, 5 shot groups at 50 yards shows definite trends in accuracy that are quite valuable to me and have proven to be repeatable - what more is needed?  That depends on the accuracy of the test as you require. Will they satisfy a statistician?  Not in a million years. What's important, is what's good enough for you? or should it be - what's good enough to be relyed upon?   

 

Offline heelerau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2012, 02:09:59 PM »
Gentlemen,
                my 8 oz tin of Mink Oil arrived from Track today, do I mix anything with it? or just use it neat?  It is Winter over here,  no snow, days dont't get much cooler than 45 'F during the day, Summer I don't shoot because of fires.  It smells funny, a bit like citrus of some sort.


Cheers

Gordon
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

westerner

  • Guest
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2012, 03:03:55 PM »
My second wife had the best and slipperyest spit I ever used. She used to stand next to me when I was shooting. She held the patches in her mouth. I just tapped her cheek to get a new wet patch.  She was about five feet tall and her head was sorta flat on top. I set my beer on her head.  I miss that gal.

              Joe.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Sperm Whale Oil article
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2012, 04:21:54 PM »
My second wife had the best and slipperyest spit I ever used. She used to stand next to me when I was shooting. She held the patches in her mouth. I just tapped her cheek to get a new wet patch.  She was about five feet tall and her head was sorta flat on top. I set my beer on her head.  I miss that gal.

              Joe.
Now that was a good one  Joe.  A good laugh is great in the morning.