Pistol construction question

[Long John]

I am coming down the home stretch on my French pistol.  But there is one question looming before me.

I have 3 original pistols.



All are from between 1725 and 1775.  One fancy, one basic and one medium quality.  They all have the typical long-spur type butt-caps.  They all have a cover or "retainer" (that's what TRS calls them) over the center of the butt cap where the screw would go on an English pistol.

Does any one KNOW how that cover is attached?   I don't think they are fancy screws because all of the ones I have are oval and they line-up with oval flats on the butt-cap.  I am reluctant to damage any of my originals with what might be destructive dissassembly.  I can make a little domed brass cover and invent a way to stick it on but I would like to do it like the originals if I could find out how the originals were done without destroying one of mine.

I appreciate any help you all can give me.  Thanks.

John Cholin

[Acer Saccharum]

That cover cap has, or should have a long tab. That gets inserted into the spur butt-cap, then a screw goes thru a hole in the cover cap tab. Screw is hidden under trigger guard strap...

[Ezra]

I would love to see an x-ray of it.


Ez

[Dave B]

This is what they look like.

[Long Ears]

 Wow, I don't think I would ever have thought of that. Thanks, Bob

[Long John]

Dave,

Thanks so much for the photo!  I see how that pistol is assembled. 

None of mine have a screw through the back half of the trigger guard.  The trigger guard casting I got (from MBS) has a lug for a pin on the back half of the trigger guard so I put the pin through the stock under the long ears of the butt-cap.  That's what I figured I was "supposed" to do.  So on the pistol I have built the TG goes on first and then the butt cap goes on, hiding the pin that retains the TG. 

I guess I will have to "invent".

Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[tallbear]

John
Look at the pic again.The screw that holds the cap is under the trigger guard it's separate from the one that holds the tail of the guard.Just use a screw under the guard for the end cap and use a pin thats not hidden under the cap for the tail of the guard.

Mitch

[alyce-james]

David B. Thanks for sharing the pictures dealing with the butt cap assembly on this style of vintage pistols. Alyce and I found the pictures to be very informative. Thanks again, AJ

[Jim Kibler]

John,

Don't be afraid to take your pistols apart.  That's how we learn.  You know how to build guns, so with care you should have no trouble taking them apart.  With that said, use care and if something is stuck or it will cause damage, don't take that bit apart.  These old guns can teach us a lot.

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

I just wanted to add that one thing boosted my gunbuilding was at the Gunsmithing Seminars when Wallace brought all his great guns he had and oftentimes disasembled them for study.  Use caution, but don't be afraid. 

[alex e.]

I am at the same stage on a French pistol build also.I was stumped.but am no longer. Thank you for sharing and teaching.

Alex E.

[Dave B]

Glad to share the wealth. Like Jim says you learn the most from seeing things  taken apart. Here is a shot of the trigger plate, trigger and guard off a french folwer.
note the front spike on the portion immediately above the trigger pad. I had never seen this sort of thing previous to taking this fowler apart. the large cut out section allows the trigger to pass through the trigger plate slot with the minimum of slot length needed The other thing that is interesting is that the trigger plate lost its extension that was buried under the grip rail. You can see the remnant inlet section for this small thin detail. It was impossible to know this hidden feature was there till it was taken apart.

[Bob Roller]

Interesting to say the least. An offset trigger to place the release bar closer to the lock plate and away from the end of the sear itself. I once made a short run of double set triggers with the slot in the trigger bar way off to the right side. It looked like a botched job done by someone who didn't know how to calculate the center of a work piece. These were as I remember a sorta/kinda Hawken design on a 1/2"wide bar.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

Offset triggers like this seem to be standard practice on 17th and 18th century European and English guns.  Kind of makes me wonder, why they are not more commonly encountered on longrifles.

[JCKelly]

I believe offset (to the right) double set triggers were often used on Tennessee rifles

[TMerkley]

Probably the reason for the offset on the triggers is two-fold.
First,  The wrist on fowlers is probably a little thicker than that of the longrifle due to its slimmed down development from a later period
Second, It could be that the person the gun was made for, may have had short fingers as well as the sear on the locks of the earlier guns may not have been long enough to reach the center of the stock as compared to the stock of the longrifle. 

I experienced this when I built my rifle using a lock from a C&W Scott and Son Lock.  It does make it better for accuracy as the person is not having to "reach" as far and rotating the hand when pulling the trigger.  I realized this years ago on a #4MK2 Enfield.  My accuracy went in the hole until I realized it and had to compensate my grip slightly. 

Tom

[alex e.]

Now a follow up question: What if the trigger guard is not long enough towards the butt to hide a hidden screw?Or for that matter the tennon of the cap is not long enough either? or in my case they just do not intersect enough...A pin through the butt somewhere?It might not be proper but a screw through the cap might happen. I'm working off original castings but not off the original gun pattern.Thats probably part of the problem. I could put an extention on the tennon I suppose,it would be long but its outta sight.

[JDK]

Extend the tenon.  J.D.

[Acer Saccharum]

Hard silver solder extensions on to suit your design.