Author Topic: Lock panels (Read 16343 times)

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #25 on:** May 06, 2012, 08:33:07 PM »

Quote from: James Rogers on May 06, 2012, 04:48:14 PM

I think that's the way the gun was tagged. I will try to find where I got it. Maybe an earliest possible date for the maker was given. What do you think, maybe subtract about 25 years?

That would be my guess, James. I'm sure this sort of thing is unimportant to most everybody, but is a time frame of interest for me. Lots of things were changing at the outset of the 18th century. On a somewhat related note, does anyone know when the first raised grip rail guard of typical form was used? That is one with out the finger grooves etc. One with a raised grip rail and formed bow. My thoughts have been maybe 1710 or so.

Jim

Lucky R A · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »

Tom and Chris thanks for clearing that "organic thing" up for me. Tom for just a minute for just a minute I thought you were heading down the road of another word starting ORG, and you end up smoking a cigarette. It is always a good day when you learn something, and even better when it is about your passion--darn now you got me doing it... Thanks Ron

Stophel · « **Reply #27 on:** May 06, 2012, 10:21:44 PM »

Though I can't see the whole thing, the gun James posted from Steinweg looks like something from about 1730 to me.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #28 on:** May 06, 2012, 11:03:56 PM »

Your homework, everyone, is to translate the European lock area into American gunwork. I's like to see your examples by the end of the week.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #29 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:07:42 AM »

What I notice on most of these guns is the lack of hard geometry. One curved surface blends into another, there are few straight lines.

It looks like the wood bulged out for the lock to sit in. I am sure that someone can word this more eloquently. It's not cylinder meeting plane. It's curves, all curves.

Lok at the swept up breech on this barrel as it meets the tang. Whoo-baby, that's what I like! This is from the Metropolitan Museum, NYC. The Hauschka fowler, written up by Shumway in Muzzle Blasts, years ago.

aflo · « **Reply #30 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:00:48 AM »

I think it is just a different form vocabulary. There is no single type of form, nor any "correct" form. The pix shown are of a definitely organic quality, other locks are more mechanical/geometric. Some gun designs might mix the two (between wood and metal) - or not. A gun is a tool with some parts relating to human interfaces and some relating to mechanical functions.
A screwdriver is the perfect tool, very mechanical & geometric where the screw is dealt with, organic where the hand goes. Guns can follow that logic or not.
There are no rules in art or design. Nor, in truth, is there any progress. That doesn't mean that people won't have hard opinions on what is correct.

Dave B · « **Reply #31 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:30:37 AM »

Here are a couple shots of a Germanic Fowler lock panel

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #32 on:** May 07, 2012, 01:36:59 AM »

The repeated mouldings, below, on a Jaeger, do not appeal to me. Is it wrong? No.

Dave B · « **Reply #33 on:** May 07, 2012, 02:00:21 AM »

The atractive thing abut the contenental work is its so intentional. Lets face it some of our later (19c)work looks cobbled together by comparison This is a french fowling piece and the pistol is Dutch.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #34 on:** May 07, 2012, 02:17:47 AM »

Some American originals for comparison.... need more

Peter Berry c.1800

Gillespie 1830?

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #35 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:01:34 AM »

Quote

Gillespie 1830?

Nope this one was a signed D. Sheets (probably David from NC) probably circa 1830
Dennis

54ball · « **Reply #36 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:27:56 AM »

Speaking of Gillespies, Look at the second rifle down, the one with the oval grease hole. Many of the early pattern Gillespies have the small "organic" lock patterns. Note also how round the entire rifle looks.

I've always thought that pattern almost seems martial in it's appearance. Maybe because it reminds a little of the US M1803.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14254.0

rich pierce · « **Reply #37 on:** May 07, 2012, 05:14:36 AM »

American muskets and fowling pieces

Dave B · « **Reply #38 on:** May 07, 2012, 06:49:08 AM »

Hey I like the bottom view on that Berry. It looks like the line from the lower butt stock toe molding runs right up and into the panel relief molding.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #39 on:** May 07, 2012, 12:38:05 PM »

Close Dave, but actually it runs up to the trigger and then curves inward to the trigger. it is close but separate from the lock panel molding.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #40 on:** May 07, 2012, 04:23:23 PM »

A Kuntz rifle, ca 1810, Metropolitan collection

An American gun, with strong Germanic influence.

There certainly is the wear factor when looking at old work. In the case of the Kuntz, I'd interpret the lock area to some wear, but the surround was gently rounded at the time of the build. But that is only opinion, since we do not have a brand new-old stock Kuntz to compare with.

The American gun shows surprisingly little wear, and the lock surround shows very little wear, other than slight chipping and denting. This is a very European influenced surround, tho' crudely done. WIth the lock out, one gets a better sense of how knife-edged the surround is.

The Kuntz is on the other end of the spectrum, a most highly evolved American work, with the surround trending toward an actual 'panel', a raised flat plane surrounding the lock, with the corners broken, tapering into the wrist and forestock.

Stophel · « **Reply #41 on:** May 07, 2012, 05:09:26 PM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on May 07, 2012, 01:36:59 AM

The repeated mouldings, below, on a Jaeger, do not appeal to me. Is it wrong? No.

Really good discussion, and a subject I had not thought too much about before!

And I don't care for the double mouldings around the lock panels like this one either.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #42 on:** May 07, 2012, 06:51:40 PM »

This breech area is the most important part of the gun; grasping for an analogy, it's the foundation for the entire house.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #43 on:** May 07, 2012, 10:04:35 PM »

After looking at the examples in this thread, and personal observation, it seems to me that most European influence was most evident in early American guns (ie: pre-Rev) and the American style grew and evolved on its own thereafter. This is a general statement, for which act many have been run out of town on a rail.

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Author Topic: Lock panels (Read 16343 times)

aflo

54ball