Lining in hunting bags

[JoeG]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

If you do a quick search of  hunting bags on the market today
the majority are lined with some type of material and also have welted seams

But if you look t original bags you have to search real hard to find any that are lined
or show evidence of ever having been lined ( maybe 10% )

I don't think that a home made bark tanned bag would have had a lining

non welted seams on old bags are about as common as welted ones

I know that you have to make what people will buy,
but we are giving a false impression as to what was actually carried in the old days

Are unlined bags that hard to sell ?

Makes me wonder if a little education of the bag buying public is in order



         

[Randy Hedden]

Makes me wonder if a little education of the bag buying public is in order

Wow!!  While you are at it you had better educate the knife buying public, the powder horn buying public and the buying public for any kind of muzzle loading accoutrements.  What you are doing is advocating that all hunting pouches should be historically correct and that is not going to work because the average buyer of muzzle loading accoutrements doesn't give a rats a$$ about historically correct or period correct.

Randy Hedden

[bigbat]

Randy, why did you leave out rifles?

[dannybb55]

Randy, why did you leave out rifles?

 

[Randy Hedden]

Randy, why did you leave out rifles?

Scott,

My focus for several years has been on making powder horns, hunting pouches, knives and other accoutrements, The question was posted in the Accoutrements Forum about accoutrements so my reply concerned accoutrements, but I could have said the same thing about rifles. 

JoeG apparently hasn't been on the ALR for very long or he wouldn't have even mentioned lined vs unlined hunting pouches and their being HC/PC.

Usually when someone mentions  historically correct or period correct on most forums, including this one, he gets jumped on with both feet.

Just to save JoeG from getting jumped on I might suggest that he go over to the Frontier Folks message boards and pose any more questions he has about HC/PC.

If you want to talk about the HC/PCness of a lot of contemporary built rifles I can do that.

Randy Hedden 

[bigbat]

Just wanted to show that our "whole hobby" has changed with innovation and creativity.  The Majority of "us"  are trying to create something a bit different (fantasy) to appeal to our customers.  I am as guilty of that as anyone in that aspect.  But then the fantasy aspect makes and keeps it interesting to me

[Luke MacGillie]

Ah Randy, you dont want to discuss period correct vs contemporary historic inspired art here?  Im hurt

All in good fun,

Luke

[Elnathan]

Usually when someone mentions  historically correct or period correct on most forums, including this one, he gets jumped on with both feet.

  

Which is pretty weird, really, given that the whole point of using muzzleloaders is their connection with history. You'd think that people would be more open to at least discussing the historical aspect of the hobby. I get why folks like the historically-inspired art stuff - I like it myself - but I would think that folks would interested in talking about the differences.

On the other hand, reenactors focus almost exclusively about the least important part of 18th century life - the material culture - and even in that tend to get really hyper over whether or not the handle of a knife is the right material and shape while ignoring the fact that the blade is of modern steel and heated-treated using modern methods, which seems a little bit more significant to the actual use of the thing...

In conclusion, everybody in this hobby is crazy. Except me, of course  

[Kopfjaeger]

Gezzzzzzzzz, You guys are a tough crowd. Give JoeG a break.

[T.C.Albert]

Wow, this is a can of worms...but I'd like to try and post on the topic...

For me, when dealing with old pouches especially, the more of them I see, the more I find making any but the most basic generalizations about them collectively is increasingly difficult, there is just so much variety...as soon as you say they never did it like that...here comes an example where someone did...but then you still have to guess who made it, where and when.

About old pouches being lined...I have seen and repaired "one"...so was lining a pouch fully a rare thing for an old bag maker to do, based on the number of unlined ones Ive seen, yes, I think it was a rare practise...

Today lined bags are definitely much more common...but aren't they equally valid as examples of artifacts from the over all culture of the long rifle...only modern?

I'm not implying that we should ever forget or stop or our continued research to try and understand how and why things were done in the past, to me that is very important...but I think the time is also right for us to ask and document the same about how and why things like lining bags are being done right now, rather than to simply debate if its right or wrong to line them.  

Calling this a hobby almost implies that it is like a game with a strict set of rules...and sure, in some juried or even individual cases that is indeed the way it is, but in general I like to advocate tolerance for some evolution and especially artistic licence especially when its identified as such.

That said, I use alot of full welts and rarely ever line the bags I make..
tc        

    

[BrownBear]

I'm always interested in The Way things were done, and in most cases I try them for myself just to see how it's done. The final arbiter in which technique and material I use for my own bags is actual use of the object. Does the method and material enhance its performance in the field, and is it worth the effort and expense to achieve it.

Bottom line for me in many a mile is that liners are worth the effort for quieting the load. I don't like fully stuffed bags, so things are pretty loose in there. And they rattle like castanets in unlined bags.  Good enuff fer me.

As for welts, I find that seams are stronger and more durable with them. If a bag holds up better, then the welt is worth the small bit of extra material and effort it takes to install.

My focus obviously is using old methods and materials to make things that work well today.  I'm not trying to recreate perfect examples of individual bags from that era, much as I respect those that do. It's instructive to me to examine my own collection of bags.  The ones that get the most use will wear out and be discarded someday. The ones that didn't work out are still hanging on the wall, and THOSE are the ones that will likely be passed down through the generations as venerable family heirlooms, however little they represent the peak of my efforts and my experience of what works best and what doesn't.  I've always wondered about that in the array of ancient bags surviving today.

[hanshi]

You certainly can get jumped on here even for asking the "wrong" question.  I know because I've still got boot heel - whew, that was close - "moccasin" prints on my back for a question I once asked. 

I've made two bags and have owned four and the only one lined was a gift.  I may try making a lined one next though unlined are more within my skill level.  Welts?  I'm not even sure what those are much less being able to put them in.

[JDK]

J.M.2.C.  Even if we admit it is a fact that lined bags were rare why should we assume that they should have a narrow share of the market at this time?

If that is what somebody want's and it is in keeping with what was then it's fine.

Perhaps there was only one maker of lined bags in the past...they still existed.

There is a plethora of "ugly" relics in existance, why not choose to reproduce the nicer stuff?  If that is your wish, have at it.

And Hanshi, boot heels are okay.  Boots with heels date back to the earliest days of colonial America.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Its sorta like...... there may be more Lancaster rifles in existence today than were ever built in the 18th century...should we therefore stop building them and build only Lehighs???

[Jerry V Lape]

I think your choices reference whether a bag is HC/PC is largely related to your assumptions regarding whose bag it may have been.  If making a bag which you assume was home made by a frontiersman scrambling for his food everyday living far out on the end of the commerce system it might be appropriate to have a quickly, crudely stitched piece of possum hide folded and stitched.  However if your assumed persona is a landed Virginia aristocrat with first choice of goods off the boat, a finely worked bag fully glove leather lined, welted, tooled and polished to perfection would be appropriate.  I think we forget that European trades were very highly skilled long before our ancestors arrived to start tree cutting and stump burning to clear farm land.  

[Beaverman]

I think your choices reference whether a bag is HC/PC is largely related to your assumptions regarding whose bag it may have been.  If making a bag which you assume was home made by a frontiersman scrambling for his food everyday living far out on the end of the commerce system it might be appropriate to have a quickly, crudely stitched piece of possum hide folded and stitched.  However if your assumed persona is a landed Virginia aristocrat with first choice of goods off the boat, a finely worked bag fully glove leather lined, welted, tooled and polished to perfection would be appropriate.  I think we forget that European trades were very highly skilled long before our ancestors arrived to start tree cutting and stump burning to clear farm land.  

Well said Jerry!

[T.C.Albert]

None the less, wasnt a true rifle pouch an American innovation?
Im not sure it has a European counterpart?
Just wondering out loud for the sake of discussion.
tc

[ROSIE]

Were the bags made in 1750 exact replicas of the ones made in 1550?
    Just some food for thought.

[Luke MacGillie]

None the less, wasnt a true rifle pouch an American innovation?
Im not sure it has a European counterpart?
Just wondering out loud for the sake of discussion.
tc

How did other non English, European colonists thruout the world carry their ammunition?

IE Dutch in Africa and Surinam, Portugese in Brazil, Spanish in the Americas, French in Canada?  Do they have shot pouch equilivents?  I mean hey, Id bleed on the Flag to keep its stripes red, but I also try my best not to engage in ethnocentric behaviors...........

[T.C.Albert]

I'd love to see a long rifle pouch from any of the places mentioned...
or even a long rifle...seriously...do they really exist?
tc

[Stophel]

I'd love to see a long rifle pouch from any of the places mentioned...
or even a long rifle...seriously...do they really exist?
tc

See the "August Angstadt" thread in Antique gun collecting.    Long German/Swiss rifle barrels are not that rare.

As far as shot bags, they're not hard to find from Europe and dreary olde England either.    Belt bags and shoulder bags.

Here's one relatively well known one I was able to find quickly:
'Gamekeeper to Sir Nicholas Williams of Edwinsford' 1725


 

As far as lining bags, it seems to me to have been rare, at best.  Further, I honestly don't know why someone would want one lined???   

[T.C.Albert]

Is that a rifle?
tc

[Luke MacGillie]

I'd love to see a long rifle pouch from any of the places mentioned...
or even a long rifle...seriously...do they really exist?
tc

I dont honestly know, but what is the difference between a long rifle pouch and a smooth rifle pouch, and a fowler pouch?  Look at the Lyman pouch, the Rev Period Brit Light Infantry pouches, all the way up to the Brit rifleman accouterments that were used by Confederate and Massachussets infantrymen in the Civil War.

I dont think Rifle pouch is even a period term.  Shot pouch is by far the most prevelant term used in the 18th Century, with Hunting pouch comming in late and becomming the norm in the 19th cent.

[Luke MacGillie]

Searching google books, for instances of shot pouch between 1 Jan 1700 and 31 Dec 1799 141 hits

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Shot+Pouch%22&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=452&sa=X&ei=PWKtT-PIJo_MmAWE2dTVDA&ved=0CAkQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1700%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1799&tbm=#q=%22Shot+Pouch%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mmKtT6i5EKrXmAWO_7CoDA&ved=0CB4QpwUoBA&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1700%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F1799&tbm=bks&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7525f91b40bf4e14&biw=1024&bih=452

Searching for "Hunting Pouch" same time frame only 6 results
Searching for "Rifle Pouch" same time frame no results. When I expand the search to 1900, got 162 results, the earliest being 1838......

[T.C.Albert]

Interesting...
Wallace could find no "hunting pouch" reference in his research...

I used the term Rifle pouch because we are an American long rifle oriented
board, and my interests lie in that direction...I believe the rifle pouch we are familiar with was adapted to serve the guns here and in that regard is unique...meaning it was developed to serve rifles...or am I wrong...isn't that what set our citizenry apart, by majority when armed we were a nation of riflemen?

 Europe was very familiar with muskets...agreed..
but didn't they send our captured rifles and accoutrements back home to England to figure them out? So I guess I dont see exactly how European musket accoutrements and pouches equate to American hunting (rifle)pouches, though Im sure it was an evolution and the influence was initially there ...interisting topic for sure...
tc