Lining in hunting bags

[Luke MacGillie]

Well, I know who Wallace is, but I dont know if he knows me, but we did spend a weekend together at a Hunting Shirt workshop back in Jan.  But from that weekend I took away that he is not as computer savy as those of us who post on these boards. 

But then again how many folks know about being able to search google books by date range for specific terms? 

Where Im going with this is that its a new tool, and I dont want anyone to think that I think im Scooping anyone.

But still, I would be more than willing to beleive what you say about American shot bags being distinctive, if you prove to me that they are.  Show me images and surviving examples of civilian ammunition carrying devices from other cultures and compare them to the known surviving examples from the Anglo world.......

[T.C.Albert]

Please, you all conjectured they were the same culture to culture, so please you show me examples where Europeans were carrying what we regard as a typical American hunting pouch...

for instance, in the image just profered, where is the powder horn? Maybe I am missing it
Are there cartridges in that bag? A flask? A ball mold made to suit the exact caliber of that musket...patching, tow and worm...lunch? American hunting pouches are often described in detail as containing certain things...and was made to hold them, is the same true comparitively for European bags?
I dont know, and am honestly asking? It would be good to know.
tc

[Stophel]

I used the term Rifle pouch because we are an American long rifle oriented
board, and my interests lie in that direction...I believe the rifle pouch we are familiar with was adapted to serve the guns here and in that regard is unique...meaning it was developed to serve rifles...or am I wrong...isn't that what set our citizenry apart, by majority when armed we were a nation of riflemen?

 Europe was very familiar with muskets...agreed..
but didn't they send our captured rifles and accoutrements back home to England to figure them out? So I guess I dont see exactly how European musket accoutrements and pouches equate to American hunting (rifle)pouches, though Im sure it was an evolution and the influence was initially there ...interisting topic for sure...
tc 

Well, a leather bag for carrying shot and flints is really no different than a leather bag for carrying balls and flints, is it  

 

And Americans didn't exactly invent the rifle... or the patched ball.  Contrary to the "common knowledge" of the Bicentennial era.

Americans were "riflemen" in regions where German/Swiss gunsmiths settled.    In other areas, like New England, for example, the rifle was almost unknown until after the Revolution.  The English were not real big on rifles (though they did make some every now and then).  The German-speaking lands, on the other hand, were chock full of rifles and riflesmiths.  

[Luke MacGillie]

Check out the following two links, These are late 18th Century Manger scene figurines from Italy, each has a leather pouch over a shoulder, and each pouch could pass for 18th Century American Shot bags........

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120022828?rpp=20&pg=67&ft=*&what=Bags&pos=1328

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120022828?rpp=20&pg=67&ft=*&what=Bags&pos=1328


http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120019835?rpp=20&pg=67&ft=*&what=Bags&pos=1326

With this info I have a very good case that the American shot pouch is decended from the European Man purse er Sachel of the 18th Century

[T.C.Albert]

  I agree Luke...in fact I thought of mentioning that last line of yours earlier but lacked the ca-hoonas...
tc

[Stophel]

Please, you all conjectured they were the same culture to culture, so please you show me examples where Europeans were carrying what we regard as a typical American hunting pouch...

for instance, in the image just profered, where is the powder horn? Maybe I am missing it
Are there cartridges in that bag? A flask? A ball mold made to suit the exact caliber of that musket...patching, tow and worm...lunch? American hunting pouches are often described in detail as containing certain things...and was made to hold them, is the same true comparitively for European bags?
I dont know, and am honestly asking? It would be good to know.
tc

The English gamekeeper above has a rather ordinary looking "D" shaped bag with a flap and what appears to be a button arrangement on a plain shoulder strap.  Something that would not look the least bit out of place on a Revolutionary rifleman.

As to the horn, in general, Europeans did carry horns or flasks in their pockets (this is why German horns are usually pressed flat).  Sometimes the horn or flask will have a cord attached to it (basically a lanyard in case it's dropped) going over the shoulder, but still carried in a coat pocket.  The Spanish had a rather neat arrangement they used with a horn that they carried with an iron belt clip.  

[Luke MacGillie]

And look at the triangle flap on the one figurine.  Now that style of pouch is known in the southeast in Native cultures, and most likely decends from the use of otter skin shoulder bags for males, having the tail serve as a type of flap.  And its even been postulated that leather bags of this type are uniquely southern, and borrowed from the Native culture,

So it is southern, if we include southern Italy

sometimes articles within the material culture of widely seperated cultures develop independantly of each other because they work......

[T.C.Albert]

Agreed...independant evoultion because it works...you cant deny that...much like lining a bag today to keep it quieter in the field.

Stophel, thanks for reiterating that there were indeed cultural differences in the pouches and accoutrements etc...
tc

[Collector]

Absent any reply from JoeG, I'm not sure if the original poster's concerns about the apparent need to '(re)educate,' "...the bag buying public" have yet been addressed or is there a need to institute further measures to that end?.

Horror of horrors- a bag with a lining, or a welt or worse yet, a bag with a lining AND a welt!! 

What happens, exactly, if I refuse to turn any of mine in?

[T.C.Albert]

Another horror to ponder...with most collected examples of original hunting pouches being "married" to a set of likely "American" accoutrements, if we leave the discussion as it stands, lacking iron clad provenance, which most pouches definately lack,because they are all alike how can anyone be sure that most any pouch is truly American and not just an old bag that was brought here directly from Europe to be paired up with a horn, mould, knife etc and passed off as an authentic American example? I dont personally believe that, but for the sake of discussion, were that potentially the case as it appears it could be, it renders the initial question mute doesnt it?

Anyway, its been a long week and Im afraid Im tired and way overthinking this, but I do really enjoy the topic...thanks all for your patience and for indulging me with out simply giving me the "boot heel" as I probably deserve.
tc

[Stophel]

There are plenty of existing 19th century American shot bags.  Not really any question about those.  Passed down through the family, we know what regions they came from, there's plenty of 19th century images to verify them, etc.  The problem comes with identifying any possible 18th century bags... American or otherwise.  There are only a very few I am aware of that MIGHT be able to make some claim about being 18th century, I can vaguely remember only one or two that are supposed to be attributed to an actual owner in the 18th century.

You will find the occasional 18th century image of a genuine American shot bag.  The 1781 DeVerger drawing comes first to mind:

http://atlanticportal.hil.unb.ca/acva/blackloyalists/en/context/gallery/images/zoom/deverger.jpg

Just a plain, brown leather "D" shaped bag with a triangular flap.  Fairly good size.  Nothing special or fancy or unusual.  Just a bag.   

[T.C.Albert]

Cool...is that an American regular or a militiaman?
tc

[James Rogers]

I am thoroughly enjoying the thread!
I don't think the majority of the end users or the makers will change their minds or be reedjumacated.
 There are many that are perfectly content with the fact that something is a copy of an "original". This seems to be the accoutrement equivalent of an "early" gun. There are others that seek provenence. Many just like a bag designed with bells and whistles for their convenience in they way they shoot or hunt.

I think as far as lining and welts go, one must be discussing when, who, where, etc.  As Jerry pointed out, something like a possum scrotum bag is very unlikely to have rolled welts, even saddle stitches and a lining. I think most of the bags made by pros were made like the rest of their items of production.
The only linings I have seen were in better quality euro pouches from 15th to18th centuries.

Timing of 18th vs 19th century is a big factor to consider.

Also remember that there were ships in the 18th century shipping things of this nature to the colonies and they were not just available from the seashore to five miles inland.

I am really enjoying the thoughts on this subject. Thanks Mr. Gondek for starting it up.
I must say I am of a like mind as Luke and Chris.

James

[T.C.Albert]

When Washington called for the small cloth double pouches to be made for his pouchless riflemen, was that an established European style or a unique American pattern and requirement for rifles?

I agree, a basic bag is a bag is a bag, and I doubt a man from mars would appreciate or even recognize the difference, but the bag outfitted with ball mould, shot bag, tow and worm etc, especially with its accompanying horn and measure specifically for a rifle still seems like it would be an American innovation to me, although I am ignorant of traditions or customs in other European cultures and admit I could be totally mistaken.

Ive tried to research the Moravian records from Salem etc...though they were some great gun makers, I can find zero mention of any horners, and nothing about pouches of any sort being made in their communities, which were made up of the finest craftsmen in the European tradition in other trades...That leads me to suspect there was not a strong need in Europe to develop those trades specifically for civilian armaments...Armories and Armies, yes, Royalty and gentry to some degree as well...

So, when the Scots/Irishman got off the boat, headed to Philly and struck out on the wagon road, how did he get his rifle and pouch etc...he didn't bring it with him, but it seems he may have been familiar with it from back home? Or was it the second and third generation Americans that met him and introduced him to these things?
Am I just rambling or does this line of inquiry make any sense? 
tc

[Luke MacGillie]

TC,

You have some things mixed up regarding cloth shot pouches.  Im in the middle of drafting an article on cloth shot bags, so Im not going to give away all my secrets, but to summarize,

Cloth shot bags might be your uniquely southern American shot bag.  Every ref I have found on cloth shot bags comes from Virginia and North Carolina.  The majority of the refs come from military orderly books, but there are a couple refs to blue plush shot pouches that are outside of a military context.

But bottom line, the double pouches you speak of were not ordered by Washington, they were ordered by the Commander of the mostly smoothbore armed 2d Virginia regiment while encamped at William and Mary College in late summer/early fall of 75 prior to marching south to Norfolk and the Battle of Great Bridge.  The reason for the double pouches were to put ball in on side, and shot in the other.  Washington was of course on his way to Boston to take command of the Army of Observation at this time.

He did order cloth shot pouches earlier in the F&I war, but that was because there was no cartridge paper to be had, and thus the VA Regiment was forced to use cloth shot pouches and powder horns insted of their issued cartrige boxes to feed their military smoothbores.  There is also one other ref to Cloth Shot bags out of North Carolina during the war of Regulation.........

[JoeG]

I’m glad you guys didn’t pile on at once

I sure didn't intend to insult anyones work and I am not against artistic expression or the evolution of the modern shot pouch. I was just kind of wondering why the trend to lined bags.

Being new to posting on this been board and was unaware that I broke a cardinal rule and asked about Historical Correctness on a site dedicated to the study and building of the American Long Rifle.

While new to the board I’m not new to muzzle loading, been involved for over forty years.  I take more of the time machine approach in the stuff I build as opposed to High Art or Fantasy, and have spent many years learning what was actually used and trying to reproduce something like it. Most of the bags I’ve made have been welted. I have also been known to make a few bags  with a lining just because it looked good and would sell quickly.


I’ve enjoyed this discussion so far and have learned a great deal.
But everyone seems to agree that lined 19th century bags are indeed rare and  we don’t have enough dated 18th century examples to be sure.

Like it or not those of us that make and sell 18th and 19th century items to the public set the standard for what is accepted as period correct.

[Luke MacGillie]

Joe,

You have a good point, and there is of course different standards for different hobbies,

You can drag a Credit Card thru the CLA show and end up alot poorer, but with a nice collection of contemporary art, and those pieces will most likely not raise an eyebrow at Friendship or the Eastern,

But try and use that gear at a Reenactment and you could not pass the jury process.......

I tend to buy and make my gear to be acceptable at a Reenactment, and use it for all the combined hobbies, IE Local matches and rendevous, Friendship, trekking ect

[Stophel]

I don't know that the double type bag has a European counterpart.  It could well be an American innovation. 

Looking in the Moravian archives, you might look for the word "Beutler", which is German for "bag maker".   

[James Rogers]

I think it would be good to define double bag. Some of which is being discussed are in fact double bags and some are just single bags with two separate compartments created by a divider. The Lyman is an example of the latter.
There are also remains of Euro double and even triple bags. See "Purses in Pieces" by Goubitz. I have a 1740's English sporting image at home that has a pouch that appears to be a double.

[Stophel]

Cool, I was unaware of that!

When one says "double bag", I naturally think of the bags that are basically two bags put together, folded over in the middle.

The Lyman bag divider freaks me out.  How useful could it be, since it's "open" at the bottom, and whatever you put on one side could work itself over to the other side?

I'm making a belt bag the same size as the Lyman bag, and after my preliminary experimental model, I can say I can CRAM a ball bag, some flints and a small screwdriver into it, and that's it.  No way I could make use of a divider in something that small.  I also wonder if it might have been worn on a cross belt, like the strap for a cartridge box.  I seem to vaguely remember seeing a period image of a British soldier with a small bag on one of his cross belts, but I could easily be mistaken.  

A nice belt bag picture.  By Edward Hatley "A Sportsman" 1752


I'm going to guess he just kept his shot in it?  Presumably in a stopper type shot bag or maybe loose???  I'll assume that's a pressed horn flask behind the bag, sitting in his hat.

[Chris Treichel]

Beutel-bag
Tasche-bag (pocket)

look whats hanging off the bar in this fellows shop... http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/75-Amb-2-317b-222-r
this appears to be some kind of shoulder bag.
[/url]http://www.nuernberger-hausbuecher.de/75-Amb-2-317b-234-v[/url]
I will look arround for some 18th century German hunting bags I know I have pictures somewhere...

when in doubt... hit the Bildindex... http://www.bildindex.de/obj05226638.html#|1

[Luke MacGillie]

I also wonder if it might have been worn on a cross belt, like the strap for a cartridge box.  I seem to vaguely remember seeing a period image of a British soldier with a small bag on one of his cross belts, but I could easily be mistaken.  

Yes, the British Light Infantry Shot pouch, that started in the early 1770's, and carried on thru to the 1860's in Brit gear that was worn by folks on both sides in the War or Northern Aggression......

[Stophel]

I WISH I had a copy of this book.  "Der Vollkommene Teutsche Jaeger", 1723.  It was reprinted in 2001, but I have yet to run across a copy anywhere.

Anyway, love the hair-on bag.


This is the ONLY 18th century image I have showing something that is similar to the familiar 19th century German bags with the hair, and deer hooves, knotted game bags, etc.  I don't THINK this picture is supposed to represent a belt bag, I THINK the engraver just didn't draw the shoulder straps completely, but still..



here's one of the clamshell type shot bags.


and here's a Dutch hunter with one of these types of clamshell bags


These don't exactly seem to be common man type bags! They apparently are derived from the earlier "Geldkatze" ("money cat"... I have no idea...) bags that sometimes had clamshell openings (with a drawstring inside) and several pockets around the outside.  Usually with an iron belt hook.  There also are the Falconer's bags, with the hoop top with a drawstring and the basic design is still used today!  I remember watching a falconer on the David Letterman show years ago and he had a black leather bag hanging on his belt much like the 17th/18th century falconer's bag!

I don't have a falconer's bag image ready on the internet.

[Stophel]

I also wonder if it might have been worn on a cross belt, like the strap for a cartridge box.  I seem to vaguely remember seeing a period image of a British soldier with a small bag on one of his cross belts, but I could easily be mistaken.  

Yes, the British Light Infantry Shot pouch, that started in the early 1770's, and carried on thru to the 1860's in Brit gear that was worn by folks on both sides in the War or Northern Aggression......

Would they just carry shot loose in it, or did they have a stopper-type or brass metered shot bag inside or something else??

[Luke MacGillie]

1770's


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oQVKFPPrzgc/TjaecX7a4KI/AAAAAAAAGu8/uln26vhJhS0/s1600/DeLWarleyCamp15.jpg


1860's

http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=589&cat=0&page=1