Author Topic: Where to find old originals  (Read 8572 times)

Offline Dave B

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Where to find old originals
« on: December 07, 2008, 11:33:49 PM »
Seeing the last couple of posts about antique dealers made me curious about the different places where you guys like to go to look at old guns. It seems to me that some places tend to have more than others. The Powder horn shop out in Forrest Grove Or. seems to always have a few on hand that have come in for repair or up for sale. When I am able to make the trek down to Springfield Or. to visit Joe & Suzie at The Gun Works I know I can count on spending a whole day if I was by my self. He has one of the best collections of old shutzen rifle around as well as some old SXS.  So where to go when in your neck of the woods?

This place discussed in the NL sounds like fun. In talking with a Scotsman at the Highland games a couple of years ago he told me of a friend of his just out of Edinborough that sells old arms and such. You walk out back of the shop and the grass is growing around the stacks of old bronze cannon. He has a old mail service sorting hutch that has pairs of Scottish rams butt pistols stuffed into every slot. Racks of old musketry just waiting to be examined. I wrote the guys name down in one of my books in case I ever find my self in Edinborough Scottland.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 12:15:39 AM »
Well Dave this place in Edinburgh is a new one on me , I live about a 2 hour drive away, would be interested in the shop location the post code will do.
Feltwad

Offline 490roundball

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 03:15:42 AM »
Sure - now you post this

I was in Edinburgh a just a few weeks ago, wasted my time with Dickson & MacNaughton's and Whisky shops   ;D
"It's a poor word that can't be spelt two ways" Tom Yeardley in Swanson's Silent Drum

Offline Dave B

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 09:27:18 AM »
I will have to hunt up that book, cant remember which one though. I put his card in the book as well and when researching will run across it now and again I will keep and eye out for you.  Heck I was looking at applying for a possition in Edinburgh  a few months ago wouldnt mind living over there for a couple of years.
The gent I talked with sold knives swords and other scottish attire and attends every Highland games I ve gone to. I will see what I can come up with and let you know. Sounded like his friend was a crusty old guy that would give a thrifty old Scott a bad name on how well he could pinch a copper.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Dave B

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2008, 06:43:20 AM »
OK, so I was sort of close on this one, just off by city though on the opposit side of the country. ;D I found the card with the name of the Gent in Scotland. Tom Duffy but in Cumbernauld just out of Glasgow not Edinbrugh.
Tried to use a directory to find the man but no luck.  ??? I may have to call Patrick from the  Scottish Sword & Shield to see if he has additional informaition on Tom.
Dave Blaisdell

northwoodsdave

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2008, 06:36:40 PM »
Dave

As it gets out that you have an interest in old guns (especially black powder) you may find the guns come to you.

I have been shown some wonderful old guns, including a Sharps that belongs to a neighbor and was her great grandfather's.  I also bought a French musket modified to breechloader from a taxi driver I know.  It was his grandfather's.

Also don't dismiss antique stores and junk shops.  While whole guns might be rare, parts are out there.  I've gotten some quite reasonably-priced antique fowler parts on eBay as well.

I don't plan a trip to Scotland any time in the near future, but you might be surprised what lurks closer to home.

David L

Offline Curt J

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 06:39:11 AM »
In this part of the country (Upper Mississippi Valley), they still turn up at local gun shows on a fairly regular basis. You might find a table full, or just one or two mixed in with a table of modern guns, or you might see one walk in the door and be carried around. Sometimes the "walk-throughs" are for sale, but quite often they are being carried by someone who is mostly interested in finding out what he has.

Offline mbriggs

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 12:06:40 AM »
I get to see a whole room full of great, original North Carolina Longrifles every time I walk into my house.  (Smile)

I am also blessed to have several good friends with wonderful collections that are willing to share.

In addition, the Greensboro Historical Museum has a number of early Longrifles on display. Three are supposed to have been used in the Revolutionary War. The Museum also seven Jamestown Rifles on display. Upstairs in the Museum is the John Murphy Collection. It is the largest collection of Confederate Manufactured Long Guns and Carbines in the U.S. with over 160 pieces on display.

Also locally you can visit the High Point Historical Museum and see 14 local North Carolina Longrifles on Display.

If you go to Winston-Salem, be sure to visit and tour Old Salem. The Museum of Early Southern Decorative Arts has 6 Great Virginia and Maryland Longrifles on Display along with 10 Great Longrifles from North and South Carolina. Included in this is the John Vogler Silver Eagle Longrifle featured in John Bivins Book, "The Longrifles of North Carolina" and the best of the Rowan Christmas Tree Patchbox Longrifles by John Eagle.  Also be sure to visit the Gun Shop of Timothy Vogler built in 1832 and still in operation.

Michael       
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 12:08:15 AM by mbriggs »
C. Michael Briggs

Offline Dave B

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2008, 05:37:24 PM »
Thanks for that information. I find if I wait till I am already at a destination the knolwedge of the locals about longrifles is limited and even at the museums it is hard to find some one who knows where to find them. I need to start a "where to go to see nice longrifles list". Of course the KRA show is the Meca for us but you still find gems out in the real world.
Dave Blaisdell

msmith

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2008, 09:22:55 PM »
Most of my longrifles I have got at gunshows.However now & then you find something on some of the gun sites.Right now there is a rifle on auctionarms.com item # 8926537.I really like the wood trigger guard,if it was a flintlock, I would not think twice.Still might take it,but wanted some input>Idont know enough about these style rifles yet.Any info would be appreciated.M Smith

voyageur1688

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2008, 10:14:31 PM »
 Originals can show up at unexpected places, I have found originals at rendezvous in the local shopper, and even a couple at garage/rummage sales.I bought one of these garage sale finds and show it at our rendezvous, but have not been able to find any concrete info on it other than that it is OLD and not safe to shoot. ( Imagine that--a gun that is only about 200  or so years old that is not safe to shoot.....LOL...) Its rough, its ugly, but has charactor so what the heck. I bought it for probably more than it was worth, but to me it was worth it for history and for display at rendezvous. I had a friend bring it to Track of the Wolf which is about 250 miles from here, and they had no idea what it was/is, or even when it would have been built, other than sometime between 1680-1825. Oh well, maybe I will eventually find out but  that is later after I get some decent pics of it.
 If I can get some pictures of it sometime , I will post some.

Offline Curt J

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2008, 05:23:57 AM »
Dave B.....I might also mention that we have a show here in North Central Illinois that many like as well as the KRA. The Prairie State Longrifle Show is held twice a year, the last weekend in February and the first weekend in August.  It is held in the banquet room of the Days Inn, Princeton, Illinois. This is at the junction of IL Route 26 and Interstate 80. We normally have 83 tables (all the room will hold) of Longrifles, Plains Rifles, early fowlers, percussion target rifles (including American-made Schuetzens), and related items. The next show will be on February 27 & 28, which is Friday & Saturday, 2009. One of the nice things about a show of this type being held in the Midwest, is the melting pot of styles. Here you will see a real cross-section of American Longrifles, Eastern, Southern, Northeastern, and Midwestern. It does bring out some guns you simply will not see anywhere else.

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 03:54:18 PM »
COMING SOON ON AMERICANLONGRIFLES.COM    :-X  Stay on line
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year  !!!!
Fred (hurricane), Bruce (Nord) and Dennis
and THE LIBRARY COMMITTEE
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 03:58:08 PM by hurricane »

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2008, 08:07:10 AM »
Try Amercian Longrifels.com board called:

The ALR Virtual Museum of Kentucky Rifles: just opened today. See below

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=21.0


 

Fred (Hurricane)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 08:08:25 AM by hurricane »

jwh1947

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 07:28:17 AM »
Things I've learned over 50 years of collecting.  Boy, this will make a lot of friends.

Rule #1  --  Spend your time before you spend your money.  Read, listen, watch the action at shows and know, for yourself, what you are buying before you ever lay money down for a gun.  Know what's hot and what's not.

Rule #2  --  It is a rare man, indeed, who buys a gun from a dealer and flips it in short order for a profit.  Dealers will hype you that "guns have been a great ride financially" and, for them, they often have been.  That's because they are hucksters---buyers and sellers-- and they make their money on the spread.  The bigger the spread, the bigger the profit. 

Rule #3 -- The real money is made when you buy a gun, not when you sell it.  That is, the price that you can get for it is, for the most part, fixed by the marketplace.  I've seen dealers with a following and/or with the gift of gab who can sell an ice cube to an Eskimo, but, on average, a dealer knows that he will ultimately fetch what the laws of supply and demand will permit, no more.   So, to make money, you need to think and buy like a dealer...I'm talking pennies on the dollar.  The corrolary is pure and simple.  If you pay retail, you had better really like it.  Sure, dealers sometimes trade among themselves for more than pennies on the dollar, or when they have a sucker waiting for your piece, but they get their "big licks" when they ambush an ignorant seller. 

Rule #4 -- If you knew how much restoration a substantial percentage of "original" Kentucky rifles have had, you would cringe and perhaps be in immediate need of smelling salts.  Hence, buying a gun sight unseen is a very, very risky business.  I unequivocally recommend against it.  Let the buyer beware.   Is a rifle with new wood from the wrist on out what you are looking for?  Barrel been stretched, too?  Most original flints are not...well, I'll stop there.

Rule #5  -- When hucksters tell you that they don't know, they probably do.  When they tell you they do know, they may not.  Unless they are thinking of you as a long term customer, they aren't thinking of you at all.  You, the buyer of old guns, must have enough confidence in yourself, to make buying decisions based upon your own opinion, and then, and only then, do I seek an outside opinion, other than mine and the dealers.

I live in the heart of central PA.  Around here general antique shops yield almost nothing good.  If they do, it's way overpriced and there's no room left for you or me.  Gun shows are occasionally good places, if you are willing to pay the going rate and you know the dealer to be one of the reputable ones.
Best bets:  find some rust and splinters at yard sales, deal with museums that are deaccessioning items, put out feelers at work and among friends. Learn how to rebuild them and be a player in the middle.  Buy low, rebuild and sell to dealers at 60% retail, give or take.  In time, you'll sell it.  Sell two and keep 1; that's your retirement.  You can do this!  You just have to learn and have confidence in yourself. 


Offline MKemper

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 05:28:50 PM »
jwh1947, thank you for sharing your years of wisdom on this subject.  Your recommendations to use caution are well taken.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 06:58:54 PM »
There is NOTHING in my neck of the woods.  Certainly nothing pre Civil War.  The closest place for me to go is to the big Louisville Gun Show, where, sometimes, there are a fair number of antique gun dealers.  Sometimes there's some really interesting stuff (even relatively affordable), sometimes there's nothing.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

jwh1947

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Re: Where to find old originals
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 07:44:46 PM »
Yes, we here in Pennsylvania are fortunate, relatively speaking.  One of the best guns I ever found came off of a pig farm.  The owner's dad used to shoot pigs in the back of the head with it before cutting their necks.  The present farmer now uses a .22  S&W.  It was all muddy and had some dry rot problems.  I traded a case of Yuengling beer and Model 12 Winchester, field grade, for the gun.  What was left of it was really ugly, and the farmer was quite happy.  He even told his friends that he pulled one over on me, getting a good shotgun and a case of beer to boot for an old piece of junk. 

 When I cleaned off the dirt, underneath was some of the finest raised carving you would wish to see.  On the barrel was a great signature.  That's all I'll say, because, by last account, the gun is in an esteemed collection right here in eastern PA, and, if I'm not mistaken, the present, proud owner paid over $25,000 for it.  It's been through several hands since I restored it, and we all put about 100% markup on it.  What's the gun actually worth?  Whatever the next guy is willing to pay.

Incidentally, I'm not a great restorer, just average.  There are real artists out there who could fake a Rembrandt; as a matter of fact, some have done just that, too, between gun restorations.  That's how they do. 

Guns are sold on the greater fool theory.  All you need is one fool, greater than yourself, to buy your gun.  Sort of like Wall Street, but you have more control over old guns.   ;D