A little advice, please?

[aflo]

What am I doing wrong?
I went for my first shoot with my percussion cap rifle, just completed on Sunday. I have shot other guns but never a muzzle loader or black powder.
This first time at anything is always (for me at least) an awkward learning experience but this was special. In over an hour, I got in only four shots, which were a LOT of fun but still… This range requires the powder and caps to not be located on the bench so that meant keeping that stuff behind the line and walking back to measure out powder and put in the caps. The big problem was that after the four shots (.445 Hornady balls with .010 WonderLube patches – in my Green Mountain .45cal x 36” barrel), things started getting hard to load. Assuming fouling, I ran two cleaning patches wet with water down the barrel then a dry patch to dry it out. That seemed to be a problem because the dry one stuck and I couldn’t get it out (until later in my shop). I had to pack up and sneak out of there, not looking too smart at all.
In my shop, I could get dry patches to go in and out if I cut them down just a little with scissors. Is this typical? Is my jag oversized (it was supposed to be for .45)? Do I need one of those ramrod puller thingies?

Another issue which is troubling - the hammer always bounces back to half cocked after the shot and there is burned powder on the lock around the drum. Is this expected or what should I do about it?
I can imagine how much more trouble I would have with a flintlock Still this is addictive.

[docone]

Boy! Have I been there.
The hammer can bounce back on firing. I had one that went to half cock each time.
If the range does not let you bring your can to the line, then make paper cartridges!
Get an half inch dowel, and wrap paper around it. Use stick glue and glue the sides together. Slide it off, and with your powder measure, measure the charge. You would have one end folded first. Fill, then fold the other side down.
Pour in the powder, then put in the paper! Set your ball and patch. Keep your caps in a cap holder.
One of the things I use, are R.E.A.L.s. They help to clean the fouling that builds up. Scrapes it down.
If you keep the cartridges in a pouch, and the caps in your pocket, then you are complying with the rule of not on the bench. You might also get a .440 mold. The .445 you have might be a little tight. Either that, or the rifle might not yet be broken in.
You will get it dialed in, and I bet it will be worth it!
Oh yeah, if you put the paper in the bore, make sure it is not a bore obstruction. Tamp it in before the ball. Mark your ramrod also.
Good luck.

[mark esterly]

aflo
as you found out at home a dry cleaning patch that gets stuck is usually too big and bunches up behind the jag.  easiest way to get them out is pour water down the barrel. now you know what size to make them.

[smylee grouch]

Aflo, was that load combination tight loading when the barrel was clean on the first shot?  A 445 ball and 10/1000 patch sounds like it should load ok in a GM barrel. How do your shot patches look? Are they still intact? These are some of the things you can check out to see if your load combo is too tight or not.    Smylee

[aflo]

The ball/patch combination was pretty tight but I didn’t have any basis of comparison on this first experience. Looking back, I think it was okay, although it took some taps with the palm of my hand on the short starter to get going.
I think the large 2” DRY patch was the mistake. I shouldn’t have tried that. Next time I will have some kind of lubricant on it, and may take along some smaller cut-down patches too. I will check out the condition of the fired patches next time.
The paper “cartridge” idea is cool. I have the capper and will keep it handy on my belt to meet the rules.
All these ideas should help and I am already looking forward to taking another shot (pun intended). Thanks!

[Vomitus]

 I'm not sure what to say about "burned powder on the lock around the drum." but I think your loading issue has to do with a loose patch,ball,bore combination. Having a loose combo will foul your bore excessively. Try going to a one inch diameter, 17 or 18 thou denim patch minimum. Just try spit for a lube,later you can experiment with the others.Make your patch sloppy wet with spit. You need a short starter to get the ball down 4 to 6 inches,then push it home. I'm not that familiar with cappers so hopefully someone will chime in to help you there. Something is obviously amiss. Good luck.

[bob in the woods]

What charge of powder, [ too much ? ] and what kind of powder are you using ? Also, what brand of lock ? Some production percussion guns I have seen have locks with rather weak mainsprings. This can increase the likelihood of the hammer being blown back to 1/2 cock. Also , same thing if the flash hole in the nipple is too large. Either, way,it is not what I would call desirable . By the way , the cap is being blown off as well and you could end up wearing a piece of it one day. I'd try and figure out what is going on.
Re: the fouling build up......I never had luck with a 10 thou patch in a green mountain barrel. Too thin a patch may seem easier to load for the first one or two, but allows fouling to build quickly, since the following load [patched ball ] doesn't wipe the crud from the preceding shot. I like at least a 15 to 18 thou patch.
My Colerain, and Rice, and Getz barrels with round bottom grooves get 20 to 22 thou patches.

[Dphariss]

Patches need to be about .018 for that ball size.
There are a number of lubes that will work.
Wiping with patches that are too wet can be trouble.
When wiping between shots use a pretty damp but not dripping patch, once up and down each side then dry patch once each side. This will prevent patches sticking from being too dry. If the wet patches go down a little hard when encountering fouling then they might be too dry. This will require some experience to get right.
If the bore is completely dry the patches get pretty tight coming back out. A good range rod, stainless steel perhaps may be needed.
If this happens while shooting put a little water down the bore and it will come up OK.
I shoot .018" in a 50 caliber Green Mountain with a .495 ball. Either Schoultz method, beef tallow I make from butcher shop fat or Neatsfoot oil.
If the lube is slick it will load pretty easy. A lube that is not slick may need a starter.
You can search the WWW for the "Dutch Schoultz method. blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com
Its best for ultimate accuracy but you need to understand the process.
I have rifles that shoot very well with the beef tallow lube and I use it for hunting.
Pure Neatsfoot Oil, NOT "compound" or other forms adulterated with petroleum solvents, works pretty well as a patch lube. If the patches are pretty wet may require little wiping. Squeezed nearly dry may give better accuracy but will require wiping like the Schoultz  method.
45-50 caliber rifles often do well with 1/2 ball weight of powder (90 gr in a 50) plus or minus 5-10 grains.

Loaded right Green Mountain barrels are capable of very fine accuracy. I have a friend who shot 15 shots, 5 sighters and 10 score and made a hole in the backstop at 60 yards that my thumb would just fit through. This was a rest match. He was shooting a .451 ball.
440 will seldom if ever shoot as well as 445 in a 45.

Dan

[Standing Bear]

Good thoughts on fouling.  still need to know type and amt of powder.

Usually, hammer blow back has to do with too large a hole in the bottom of the nipple and that is usually from gas cutting.  Was this a used nipple?  When the blow back lifts the hammer the gasses and solids blown thru the nipple are reflected by the hammer face and cup to cause fouling build up around the drum area.  When blow back lifts the hammer far enough to catch on the half cock, that is way too much.  Put in a new nipple and always wear shooting glasses.

BUT if fouling around the drum is caused by leakage between the drum and barrel, that is more dangerous and needs to be addressed immediately.

[lafreniere]

Was there oil left in the barrel?

[Dphariss]

PS
Wiping patches need only be 1 1/2" or so for a 45.
I use diaper flannel.

Dan

[nosrettap1958]

With a new barrel, clean between each shot.  I use rubbing alcohol as it’s cheap and tears through black powder fowling and it dries quick after scrubbing with a dry patch.  Take a knife with you at the range so you can cut your cleaning patches down.  I use old t-shirts for cleaning patches, as they are cost effective.  And, most important you have to get into a primitive weapon frame of mind.  Go slow and easy and take your time.

[aflo]

I was shooting Pyrodex RS, 50 grains for these first shots. The lock is a small Siler Chambers lock and the nipple is brand new. During construction I had the lock apart several times for inletting, etc. and it is possible the action may not be quite right although it seems to function perfectly on the bench. I may clean and re oil it before shooting again.
On the patches, I will get some other types (thicker for shooting, smaller diameter for cleaning) and give em a try.
Thanks for the inputs. My big problem is not really knowing what to expect, let alone how to react.

[docone]

Just wait untill you go to the range and do a few dry balls in a row!
In time, and with experience, it will get quite comfortable for you. It sounds like you have a sweet rifle there.
Your balls might just be a little tight, and that is an issue. Before you get a mold, try a few .440. Play around with patch thicknesses also. Thick patch for target, and lessor for hunting, or fast reshots.
I am a fan of Longrifles. The craftsmanship, the feel, the involvement. Makes it worth while for me.
Back in the '60s it was all about Semis, in the '70s I got involved wth levers. In the 80s it was Ruger #1s, in the 90s it was bolt guns. Now it is single shots and front stuffers.
Good shootin

[nosrettap1958]

Wait a minute now you're only using 50 grains of Pyrodex and the hammer is bouncing back to half cock with a brand new nipple? That hammer should not bounce back that easily.  When you cock it does it feel strong? Is there a solid CLICK sound to it as the sear glides over the half cock notch and the full cock notch as the tumbler revolves?  

[bob in the woods]

Siler locks I have seen have pretty strong mainsprings , so bounce back to half cock is something I'd really want to get to the bottom of.  That is blow back pressure doing that ..[ not good ! ]

[bgf]

Right before I (apparently) stopped shooting percussion about a year ago, I ordered some nipples and they all have huge orifices in them compared to what I was accustomed to seeing.  I have put one on my caplock rifle, but I haven't ever shot it yet, as I am still "mastering" flint !  This could blowback seriously, however, as the hole was bigger to start with than one with perhaps 2500 shots on it!  I really don't know what is standard, but I would look at the orifice first and try to find some nipples with a smaller one.  50 grains Pyrodex (BP or even T7 is better for your rifle, by the way shouldn't blow the hammer back even with a weak spring! 

[bob in the woods]

Exactly .  I shot 90 gr FFg in my .45 bullet gun [ 535 gr bullet ] and no blow back with a Siler .

[nosrettap1958]

No decent lock should blow back like that using so little powder.  A worn nipple may lift the hammer a bit off the nipple but all the way to the half cock notch?  There is something wrong here and I’m afraid that we are not going to be able to fix it just by description.  Someone needs to go to the range with him or look over his rifle to find out what is really going on.

[bgf]

I agree that a mentor would be the best route.  TRESO Ampco nipples say they have 0.028" orifice, and that is more what I was used to.  I ordered generic stainless (hey, stainless is always better, right!), and the hole looks to be nearly 1/16".  I don't know that is the cause or if aflo's are even similarly sized, just trying to point out that some nipples have bigger holes than others from the start, which I had never really thought about before.

[Standing Bear]

OK, more to be humorous than serious but to drive the point home. 

Someone decided the artificial powders such as pyro need more flame and went to the 1/16 similar to what is used in touchholes.

.020-.028 is what I remember from shooting pop guns.  1/16 is what I use for touchhole liners and that can (has but you do have to be close) set on fire a piece of cardboard used for a flint shield.  Get some experienced eyes on this.  If no one is close, measure and get pics.

Whatever you do, DON'T shoot that thing.
TC

[Chris Treichel]

Might want to get yourself a worm... lost patches down the barrel just happen every once in a while.  Also might want to get a ball puller. 

[aflo]

I do have a ball puller and a worm – had to use both of them today. I hope I have covered all the possible mistakes by now.
The orifice on the nipple is big enough to slide in a #48 drill which is .076” diameter. I will be looking for a nipple with a smaller hole. I assume the hole size is the same all the way through it. I had to cut some off the bottom of my nipple because of how it fit into the drum and it is possible that the hole necks down in the area I trimmed??
I noticed some rubbing noise when I manually worked the hammer so I looked at the insetting on the lock. The wood sealer had swelled up the wood just a little and was rubbing on the spring so I chiseled it out a little more. This helped but there have still been some hammer rebound to half cock, both with 50 grains and 75 grains of Pyrodex RS. I think I can polish the lock part that works against the end of the spring and that might help some.

I shot again today and got off 18 rounds, six with 75 grains. The groupings at 12 ½ yards was about the same either way but at 25 yards, the 50 grain group was much bigger so I will drop the 50. The rebound issue is no worse at 75 grains anyway.
I am back to my regular indoor range, much closer to my house and better in several ways. They don’t have a silly “time out” every half hour like the other range in El Cajon that I went to yesterday. The regular range just opened a new 25 yd indoor range and they allow black powder so this works out much better. Another problem at El Cajon, the overhead clearance was lower - just enough to force me to step out of the booth to use my ramrod – what a pain.

I really appreciate the interest in helping me, especially since I know a lot of you don’t really love percussion cap. Still everyone has been terrific and I have already got – and used – many good ideas. I am now making up paper cartridges at home before I go which saves time and is easier to do with the good lighting in my shop compared to that on the ranges. These paper cartridges are extremely convenient. I am cleaning the bore after every third shot for now and it is working pretty well. I am using alcohol so the rust concern with the water is less and it dries fast. I am cutting down my cleaning patches diameter and always using them with the alcohol.
So much thanks for the ideas and help!

I did have one malfunctioning cap, the next cap worked. I also had one hang-fire – a short one of maybe a half second. Other than that, and the blowback issue which is better but still a problem, I am having a ball shooting this thing.

[aflo]

I don’t have an unmodified nipple to look at but I suspect that the design has a larger diameter hole for the top portion, with a necked down area at the bottom to concentrate the flame front. The nipple I had would not seat into the drum without trimming the bottom, at which point the narrow neck would have been lost. The blowback would result if this is correct.
I can order a new nipple and maybe it will fit without trimming. Another idea is to silver solder a 1/6” brass tube (with a 1/32” ID) into the lower part of the old shaft.
Thoughts?

[bob in the woods]

that drum/nipple arrangement worries me !!