No. 2 fixed one disaster, made a bigger one.

[JohnTyg]

I think something is conspiring against me!

Went to drill a 1/4" hole for the patch box release button, Had the butt plate secure on the drill press table, drilled a starter hole, then went to drill with the 1/4 bit and it grabbed the butt plate and spun it around at an angle a dozen times auging out an oblong hole and gouging and chewing the edges of the butt plate on the edge of the drill press table.

Took a deep breath and went to fixing it. Hammered and filled away. Refit it to the stock and plugged and re- drilled the top butt plate screw. Had some paper thin gaps so annealed the putt plate (or so I thought!) and closed these gaps. Looked as good as before I messed up, although the butt was now 1 15/16" wide instead of original 2".  Still had to make a larger button for the patch box release, but it looked as good as new. ......Or so I thought.

Then...... I noticed, at the toe of the butt, probably incompletely annealed at that area, 4 (four!) hairline cracks extending 1 to 1.5 cm to midline. These extend entirely through the plate.   This butt plate is an old sand casting that hasn't been available for years.

My first attempt at "gun No. 2" ended in band sawing though the lock plate area.  My second attempt ended (thank goodness) when I utilized a complete pre-carve that had too soft a wood, a lock inlet in an awkward position and a loose barrel inlet.  Gave up on that one deliberately but learned a lot.  I've nearly finished this one, just need to get over this latest problem.

Any suggestions??  Know anyone who does restorative brazing?  I am guessing that the proper way to fix this is to grind these out from the back and braze it in.  Beyond my skills.

The cracks may be difficult to see in the photos.

Thanks for any thoughts.

John Tygart  Syracuse, NY

[Ezra]

Man, that's tough.  Were it me, I would contact Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading.

http://www.cabincreek.net/


Ez

[JDK]

Oh, man, I know you must be sick....I would be.

If it's any consequence, your work so far is real clean.

+1 for Brad....but there are several guys here who could fix it I bet.

Good Luck, J.D.

[Vomitus]

 Just a thought. If the cracks go right through, perhaps,with a little work,you could silver solder it on the inside?  I think your brass hardened with you pounding and filing on it.The crack looks like it started at the screw and may have broke out with tension on the said screw.Maybe check that screw head to see if it matches the champfer angle on the plate. I think you can fix it. Interesting patch box.

[docone]

Providing there are no defects in the casting elsewhere, that should be no problem to braze. It will be more like silver soldering with brass, but it can be done.
Probably won't even notice it.
Probably best to get the brass flowing on the inside, then pull it from the outside.
Your inletting is great!
Wonderful job.

[Stophel]

EASY to run some silver solder there (meaning silver solder, NOT "silver bearing" soft solder), assuming you have an oxy-acetylene torch, silver solder and flux!

It happens, no big deal.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think you're pretty tough on yourself.  What I see is very nice.  That is a tricky patch box head inlet, and you pulled it off with an A+.

If it were my build, there are two things that I'd do.  First, I'd chuck up my screws and file a little dome into the heads.  That would take care of the way the heads of the screws stand a little proud of the brass.  Secondly, I'd file the edge of the butt plate thinner.  It's probably just a personal thing, but I don't like to see a fat edge on a butt plate. 

As 'Stophel' has said, flux the inside and outside of the crack, and silver solder (silver braze) from the inside.  At dull red heat, the solder should flow to meet the flux on the outside, and completely mend the crack.

I once had a sand cast butt plate crack like that when I was trying to change its dimensions just a bit (longer at the toe).

[rich pierce]

Agree 100%.  Another option if you're really worried is to also silver solder a sheet metal "strap" on the inside surface of the buttplate and inlet that.  Probably overkill but you'll never worry that the thing is going to fall apart.  I had a guard break right in the rail and it was all inlet and the gun was near finished.  I filed the upper surface of the rail flat, fitted sheet brass, silver soldered the whole thing and it was good to go.

[JohnTyg]

Appreciate all the comments and advice. 

Thanks Taylor.  Had planned on finishing up the screw heads as you described.  I'll take your advice on slimming the edge of the plate as well.
Just beginning to relax.  I think you picked up on may compulsiveness regarding this in an earlier post.
Just too little free time and have been trying to finish this for years. 

I may have to learn to silver solder, but also placed an email to Brad Emig.

Is the strength of a silver solder repair as strong as and as invisible as a brass brazed repair? My concern is that I have 4 cracks in such a small area. It may need to be reinforced as well.

Think I need a beer.

John

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't think you're going to need high strength solder for the cracks. Plain 95/5 plumber's solder would do structurally, and the cracks are so fine, very little of the solder joint would be seen. This is a safe route, since the buttplate is already inlet.


A high heat silver braze may produce a better color joint, BUT the heat required may warp the plate. Then you have made more problems.

[kutter]

I'd silver solder it myself.
But if you're concerned about the heat and possible warpage, just soft solder.
If you want a bit more strength to the repair, fit an overlapping plate of brass on the back side of the crack (not quite to the outside edge so that it doesn't show),,and sweat solder it in place at the same time. A small extra amount of inletting then necessary for the BPlate to fit back down in place.

Very nice job btw!

[smylee grouch]

Use plumbers solder, flux and let it soak in, dress any off that you need and you wont be able to see it as easyly as silver solder.   Smylee 

[lafreniere]

I would run a jewelers saw thru the cracks and weld new brass into the cracks.
Use paste flux and a mini oxy acetylene torch. Carve it back, good as new.

[bob in the woods]

I have one like that on a rifle I built over 10 years ago, before I knew better. Fine cracks are still there.
If it bugs you, soft solder it. If you use higher heat and it warps...you'll be sorry !

[flehto]

When drilling a Bplate tang, first use a pilot hole drill that's just larger than the web on the final drill. Brass is"grabby", so I always break the drill cutting lip w/ a stone so the cutting edge is in line w/ the drill length....doesn't take much of a flat to eliminate grabbing and it cuts brass just fine. Also , I wrap the Bplate shoe w/ paper toweling for a better grip so it doesn't move while drilling.....Fred

[JTR]

Just keep in mind that whether you use soft solder of silver solder, the color will not match the color of the brass. If you keep the butt plate shiny bright, the difference in color will be negligible, but if you let the brass tarnish, the color difference will be more noticeable.
The cracks are just small lines, so the difference in color will be a personal thing,,, something you can live with,,, or not...
John

[Dphariss]

Another vote for Silver Solder. It will color match far closer than any lead/tin solder and is strong enough to actually perform a function. Soft solder is not worth the trouble for most gun parts.

Two high output propane torches would likely work to silver solder your part with less heat concentration.

Dan

[JohnTyg]

Thanks, keep the comments coming,... it's therapeutic.

It's hard to get used to the ideal that I had a perfect butt plate inlet and things looked  really good and I was able to botch it at a stage when 95% of the difficult work was done.

I like the idea of silver solder over soft solder and am willing to risk deforming it.  Really like the Idea of cutting out the hairlines with a jewelers saw and "welding" brass in, just not sure I have the capabilities. Think that the cracks are fine enough that the solder may not "wick" into the defects.

Think I'll set it aside until fall (take me that long to develop a sense of humor about it) and work on finishing my 1959 MGA as therapy.  I need to learn to weld anyway!

If I were retired or had more free time I'd just finish it best I could and plan on doing better next time.

John

[Lucky R A]

    I will second what Fred said about "breaking the edge" on drill bits that you use on brass.  I just touch mine to the disc on my disc/belt sander.  I keep a small block of drill bits for holes in butt plates and patchboxes etc. all with the edges ground slightly.

[Robby]

John, To further complicate your decision making, the bow area of this guard was cut in a chevron shape, half inch removed, then brazed back together. I can not see the joint and am no longer sure just where it is, near the center. The brazing rod must have been the same alloy as the brass, don't know.?.

Good luck!!
Robby

[JohnTyg]

Robby,

Very nice job with the brazing, did you do the work yourself?
I think that there is a little overlap or confusion with silver brazing, brass brazing and welding.
Looks as if it is possible to do an excellent repair.  Will need to learn some new skills.

John

[Acer Saccharum]

For drilling brass, the leading edges of the drill need to have flats, otherwise the drill grabs like a banshee. The two cutting edges have been turned into scrapers, instead of chisels. This grind ruins the tool for drilling steel, unless you're willing to grind the drill back to get rid of the flats.

[Robby]

John, Yes I did it myself, but it was a rough casting and there was room along the edges for filing in case of melt back on those finer edges, though I don't remember that as happening. I'm not sure how it would work out on your finished part.
Robby

[bama]

Brownells sells a low temp silver solder that would work very well for your problem. Just flux well with their recommended flux for the solder and use a Map Gas tourch for your heat. Clamp the butt plate so that the toe is in the horizontal posistion cut a few strips of the round solder and lightly hammer them flat, lay the flattened solder along the cracks and apply your heat from the underside of the butt plate. Apply the heat slowly to bring the temp gradually, when the temp is right you will see the solder flow down into the cracks. Let cool and you will be done and you will not have any wrapage to the butt plate.

[Stophel]

I can't imagine any real warpage.  Even if it did, any warpage could be easily bent back into place.

I've done this exact thing before myself.  Cracks in the buttplate.  It's a no fuss, no muss operation.