Western PA rifle ID assistance

[DaveM]

I am hoping someone with more knowledge of western pa rifles may be able to help identify the maker of this piece.  The rifle is original except the hammer was missing so I added one (thanks Frank!).  The signature or initials are very hard to read, but I believe the first letter is a "T" as the T matches a T in the inscription on the patchbox.   This rifle came from a descendent of the original owner.  From the early 1800s to after the civil war the family lived in Beaver County PA, near the Ohio River.  The rifle is inscribed on the box "The Lady Of Ohio" which apparently was the name of the gun.  The original owner died in the civil war and was in the 140th PA volunteers.  His canteen came with the gun.  Thanks for any help 
Dave

[Shreckmeister]

Yuns have my undivided attention.   Love it.  From my backyard and with history.  Thanks for sharing

[Shreckmeister]

Pancost , ernest ,allison, mccosh, cooper, pollack all signed guns using this same patch box.
 Theory is that it was mass produced Box.  All good makers.  Shes a beauty

[DaveM]

Thanks Rob- the release spring had fallen loose inside the buttplate and the gun had a box lid that hung open for who knows how long and it must have been damaged by someone laying it down with the box open and it was a bit bent and had a crack.  It still had the original spring rattling around inside.   I repaired the crack and rest the spring so it now closes
Dave

[Paul E. Wog]

" Lady of Ohio " may have been the name of a steamship or packet ship that plied the waters of the Ohio River.  Not too uncommon for the " Ohio  " to be the name of one of the numerous boats produced and sailed on those waters in the 1830-1870 time frame...presentation gift to the captain or one of the mates
  Nice W. PA example Thanks for show and tell
                                      Shreck

[DaveM]

Here are some photos of the patchbox and toeplate.  Paul - very interesting thought about a possible boat name - that would be really cool!
I think the gun may have been dropped on the butt end at some point because you can see there were cracks resulting in missing chunks from the sidepanels, toeplate and that may explain the lid getting the spring knocked loose.  The buttplate was a bit loose also and I did my best to tighten it up.

[Shreckmeister]

The nub on the front of the triggerguard reminds me of Kuntz family work.  Very stylized.  This gun has enough unique characteristics that someone should know the maker.  Rick Rosenberger comes to mind.

[DaveM]

Note that I think the barrel was shortened about 3/4 inch at the breach because at each barrel pin you can see where the pins went through the stock 3/4 inch in front of each of the current pin locations in the stock

[tallbear]

Suskat

Pancost , ernest ,allison, mccosh, cooper, pollack all signed guns using this same patchboxguns using this same patch box
 Theory is that it was mass produced Box.

Who's theory is that they were mass produced.I've studied Western Pa guns for a while and this is the first I've heard of this theory.Please elaberate.If you look closly at the boxes while they are the same style they don't match exactly even with in the same maker.

Mitch

[Don Stith]

My best guess from the photo of the signature is Thomas Allisson. In  script the first 's' is made like an 'f'. The lower loop on his 'f' falls down onto the barrel diagonal. Get out your magnifier and lots of light to look fot the telltale loop.

[Shreckmeister]

    In Rick Rosenberger's book on Allegheny & Westmoreland County on
p XXIX he shows the box and makes the statement.  In that book it looks
to me like 4 or 5 of those boxes are identical outside patterns with
different piercings which would have been up to the maker to cut.  Rick
makes that statement in the paragraph left of the picture.  Perhaps mass
produced was a wrong choice of words, but made from the same pattern
perhaps by a local smith to resell.

Suskat

Pancost , ernest ,allison, mccosh, cooper, pollack all signed guns using this same patchboxguns using this same patch box
 Theory is that it was mass produced Box.

Who's theory is that they were mass produced.I've studied Western Pa guns for a while and this is the first I've heard of this theory.Please elaberate.If you look closly at the boxes while they are the same style they don't match exactly even with in the same maker.

Mitch

[tallbear]

Suzkat
Thank you for the reference.Made from the same pattern makes a lot more sense,keeping in mind that an apprentice leaving his masters shop would leave with a full set of patterns.Also Western Pa's isolation during the period of these rifles making would make it necessary for the local smiths to stay in fashion with the local style.There is enough variation between boxes even with in the same maker for me to respectfully disagree with the thought that they were mass produced by one maker.Even the finials differ slightly.

Dave
No matter what you have a very nice Western Pa rifle and I think Don Stith has you on the right track with his Thomas Allison suggestion.It looks like his or one of his apprentice's work.Enjoy the rifle would love to see it sometime in person!!!!

Mitch

[DaveM]

Don, (corrected my sloppy spelling) -  here are some other photos of the latter part of the signature. I don't show what I think is a "T" and period which is first but you can see part of the T at the very left side of the first picture.  The second and last photos show one letter that looks like an "f" with a sweeping volute behind it.  All of the engraving on the gun was lightly done.
[IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z228/DaveM_bucket/DSCN8462.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z228/DaveM_bucket/DSCN8464.jpg[/IMG]

[wpalongrifle]

Davem, this box design was highly used over western pa. and Ohio..like Mitch said no two were exact!!. allthough very close...to my eye it appears western pa. one trait is the spear point filed into the front bow of the trigger guard...i have handled many a Allison and Morton rifles and not sure this is one?? allthough the engraving is nice on this rifle , not up to par with both the old makers. try putting some chalk in the barrel signature and see if it helps bring it out!!  Fleeger also used this box on some of his target rifles late period.. he was a master engraver and his script signature rolled over the barrel flats in multiple places...Mk

[Don Stith]

I no longer own my Allissons; so can not send you a photo of the signature. If you have a copy of Rosenbergers book, he has reproduced Fleegers apprenticeship papers. Allissons signature on those papers is the same as what he put on the barrels.  Fleeger let the loop of his 'g" drop onto the diagonal just like Allisson did on his 'f'. Wonder where he learned that? Pollock used the trigger guard with the little dollop at front of the bow. He also apprenticed to Allisson.
I have sold off all but three of my Western PA rifle collection or would be hounding you to sell me that one.   I like the other posters thought that the rifle might have been built for a steamboat captain.
The fanciest silver mounted Hawkens I have seen were made for steam boat captains

[DaveM]

Thanks Don, you have peaked my interest in this possibly being the name of a ship.  I looked briefly on the internet and saw that steamships started on the Ohio as early as 1811 (though this gun is later).   I did not know that rifles were made for such ships, but that being the case, as related to this gun that seems to make the most sense (rather than being the name of the gun itself).  I will further study the signature and try chalk dust as suggested also.  Don you are correct in that my best bet would be to have a photo of an Allison signature, and Fleeger's signature to compare.  There are enough marks that I could possibly be able to know what to look for.  

I would be very appreciative if anyone had a photo of these signatures, or know someone that I could contact to obtain them (I do not have the book you mention).  The only writing I could find was in kindig the "Death" rifle which has similar lettering on the patchbox and that was by allison. I also thought the cheek inlay design is very unusual, and thought perhaps someone saw something similar.  

Maybe this gun had a double history - as a ship gun, prior to the family ownership history relayed to me from the older lady I obtained it from - it came from her mother's side who were from Pittsburgh, and from my research I found that this family (and the CW soldier specifically) in earlier days before the civil war lived on a large farm near Hookstown in Beaver County not far from the Ohio river.  I believe the soldier's mother's family was rather affluent in the area.
Dave

[Shreckmeister]

Dave,  I wonder if you might find a reference to The Lady of Ohio in Beaver
County history books.  I'm not familiar with the port cities along the ohio, but
you might check Cinci histories or those of other port towns from back in the day.
Good luck in your search.  I hope to hear some time that you found the answer.

[oakridge]

I looked in Way's Packet Directory and Lyttle's Merchant Steam Vessels, and find no  listing for a Lady of the Ohio. These books are pretty thorough, so I don't believe this is a boat name.

[Paul E. Wog]

Name: OHIO RIVER
    Comments: From The Diary Of Joseph T. Anderson, shopkeeper,
             Commerce, Mo.
            -Thursday Night, March 28th, 1861.  Business dull.  Weather good.  River rising."
             . . . ."Ohio River boat landed about 11 o'clock, put off W. Burgess and Morris
             Mop.

* Name: OHIO
   Size: 80 tons
   Power: High pressure
   Launched: 1825, Cincinnati, Oh.


Name: OHIO
    Launched: 1833, May
    Area: N. O. to Cincinnati.

Name: OHIO
   Type: Sternwheel wooden hull packet.   Size: 121 tons.
   Launched: 1849, Shousetown, Pa.
   Destroyed:  1856, off the lists
    Area: 1849, out of Zanesville, Oh.
    Comments: Mentioned in this Article

Name: OHIO
   Type: Sidewheel wooden hull packet.  Size: 348 tons.
   Launched: 1849, Cincinnati, Oh.
   Destroyed: 1857, off the lists

1. Name: OHIO No.3
   Type: Sidewheel wooden hull packet.  Size: 218' X 35' X 5.5', 264 tons.
   Launched: 1858, Marietta, Oh. at Knox yard
   Destroyed: cir. 1868, lower end of Harmar Yard, cut down by ice, dismantled
   Area: built for Marietta-Cincinnati trade
        *1865, Sat. June 5, Parkersburg, W. Va., left warf
   Captains: When new, J.J. Blagg, master with John Heisner, clerk

Name: OHIO, originally the CLIFTON
   Type: Sternwheel wooden hull packet.  Size: 251' X 39' X 5.5'
   Launched: 1879, Cincinnati, Oh.

1. Name: OHIO VALLEY/TINCLAD #10/IBEX/HARRY DEAN
    Type: sidewheel, wooden hull packet/tinclad/packet.  Size: 325 tons.
    Launched: 1863, Marietta, Oh, Knox Yard or Harmar, Oh. Way's has both listed.
    Destroyed: 1868, Sat. Jan. 4, 10:00 am, Walker's Landing 2 mi. below Gallipolis,
               Oh., port boiler exploded. 5 persons lost.  See Account of explosion
    Area: 1863, Tramped Louisville-Nashville
          1864, Pittsburgh-Cincinnati
          1864, Sept., Wheeling-Cincinnati
          1865-67, Aug 8, Cincinnati-Memphis
    Owners: 1863, Built for Capts. Chapin, Wells, and others
         1865-67 The Dean Line
            1864, Dec. 10, sold to U.S. Navy.  Converted to Tinclad #10 and renamed
                  IBEX.
            1865, Aug., sold to Capt. William B. Miller, Dean Line
            1867, July 8, sold to other parties.
    Captains: 1863 when new, Chapin
              1864, Amos Davis
              1865, H. Blasdel
              1867, Master, Daniel F. Sayer; pilots, J.A. Levesay and B.F. Hall
              1868, Jan. 4, pilot was Capt. Hiram Burch, master was Capt. Thos. Sayre             
    Comments: 1864, renamed IBEX by U.S. Navy
              1865, renamed HARRY DEAN 
 
Not saying that these may be the source of The Lady of Ohio, just maybe possibilities.
                                                Shreck