Antique Rifle

[bfj]

I bought and old rifle at an estate sale and would like to know more about it.  It is marked Bergkr, Detroit, has a 30 inch barrel, a little bigger than .45.  How old s it?  How much powder would be safe to use in it with 200 gr .45.
bfj

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Shooting such an aged rifle is frought with personal danger and may destroy history and your investment.
Hurricane

[nord]

Let's start with a rifle that has either celebrated or will be celebrating its 150th birthday. The barrel has been cut back which tends to indicate a long working life. Very likely it's more probable of damage to the gun than yourself should you fire it, but do you really wish to take the risk? I ask this because a modern T/C Hawken can be had at a good price and can be expected to be absolutely safe.

If the answer remains a yes, then I can't stop you. Just remember that the slightest accident will destroy a lot of history. The Pawn Stars are absolute fools as far as I'm concerned and whether an antique fires or not is totally beside the point.

So... Have the gun looked at by a good smith. He won't guarantee safety but he'll tend to see problems that you might miss. Next would be a very light load. Perhaps 30g or somewhat less loaded properly. (Ball must be seated on the powder with no airspace.) Assuming no problems show up, then increase the loads slightly. An oldtimer once told me that he considered it unwise to load grains beyond the bore. In other words 45 grains in a .45 caliber gun.

For myself you couldn't pay me to experiment with an antique rifle of this type. Maybe a somewhat later target rifle, but not this gun. Too much risk for both yourself and a nice old rifle.

[JCKelly]

I'd love to have more photos of this rifle in case I can do another edition of Michigan Gunsmiths.  Also, exacty what are the markings on the barrel?
Here is what I have in the current edition:

Berger, Caspar,  Detroit                1836 - 1866   
Wayne County 1850 census shows Caspar Berger 46(?) Gun Smith and his wife Margarett 39, both from Germany. Their four children, Matilda 14, Margarett 13, Joseph 9, and Caspar 2 were all born in Michigan. At that time the value of his real estate owned was $800. The Detroit Advertiser for 1836 reports Berger as a rifle and gun smith, shop on Woodbridge Street, 6th door west of Steamboat Hotel, 183612.  Active in Detroit up to 1866. Several percussion rifles with his name are in existence, and at least one 10 gauge double shotgun. This shotgun was said to have been made in Berger’s shop at a Plum St, Detroit, location.

The city directory for Detroit in 1866—’67 lists Caspar Berger as an engraver, boarding at 46 Russell. A Joseph J. Berger, boarding at 46 Russell, is also listed as an engraver.

The Berger rifles of which I have photos are later half-stock rifles. I'd judge yours to be early, as in sometime in the 1830's. Whether or not you choose to risk a few fingers & a fine rifle do NOT use 200 grains of powder in it. Original loads tended to be very light by today's standards. Maybe 40 or 50 grains.

No one can tell you whether it is safe to shoot as no one, save a place with a magnetic particle inspection machine, can tell you if the weld is sound. Weld, yes, old barrels like this tended to be forge-welded wrought iron. A lot of them were very good. Some were not.

I don't really collect Michigan guns anymore, though you could tempt me, but I sure do like to gather information and photos of them. Would like your permission to use these two photos in my future publications.

[bgf]

I'm guessing 200 gr. is weight of conical bullet, not charge of powder, since he asks how much powder!  Either way, I wouldn't shoot it, as it is far too nice a rifle, but definitely not under any circumstance with a conical (which will increase the pressure substantially)!  I think most of the guns Chumlee shoots are probably loaded with 20 gr. FFg and a lightly patched ball, but even then, what is the point of shooting something that really has no value any longer as a shooter, but has significant historical importance.

It is a very nice rifle, one of the prettiest I've seen identified as Michigan rifles.

[Dphariss]

I bought and old rifle at an estate sale and would like to know more about it.  It is marked Bergkr, Detroit, has a 30 inch barrel, a little bigger than .45.  How old s it?  How much powder would be safe to use in it with 200 gr .45.
bfj

That rifle was not meant to shoot a 200 grain bullet and is not safe to shoot in any event.
Why?
No matter what  you see on TV it does not increase the value and the potential for disaster is high even if its been debreeched and properly examined to assure that the parts subject to pressure are not corroded or otherwise unsafe.
The rifle was intended to use a single patched round ball not an elongated projectile.

Dan

[James Wilson Everett]

Please check to see if it is loaded.  Many originals have been loaded for a very long time.  Run the ramrod down the barrel to see how clear the bore is.  The ramrod should go into the bore to a depth of barrel length minus about 1/2 inch.  If it sticks out much more than that, the gun may be loaded.

Jim

[bfj]

Thank you to all the replys requarding me not shooting the old rifle,and also thanks to jckelly for all the information you provided about C Bergkr, Detroit. You are welcome to use any pictures I have posted.

[Hawken62_flint]

Don't know anything about the rifle, but it is sure a beauty and was probably made for some well-to-do person when it was made.  Congratulations on a really nice find.

[JCKelly]

OK, all Ye Longrifle Devotees, wonder from whence Caspar Berger got that patchbox design?
Does it ring a bell with anyone?

I looked through Kentucky Rifle Patchboxes & Barrel Marks by Chandler, found a couple vaguely similar, pp142 & 272. Guess I'll hunt up my copy of Chandler & Whisker's 1992 "All New Volume 2" & keep digging.
 
Berger came to the US from Germany, by age 32, in 1836, he was established in Detroit.
We are all Supposed to Believe that the metal patchbox is an American thing, so one might think he got the idea for this design somewhere here in the USA.

Next week I get to photograph what I can of a very large Michigan gun collection including two pistols, Wingert and a Rheiner. This book is becoming, well . . .

Thank you, bfj