Author Topic: Frizzen treatment (again)  (Read 12530 times)

TINKER

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Frizzen treatment (again)
« on: May 21, 2012, 09:29:57 PM »
Have a Chambers lock that had to have the bottom of the frizzen built up with wire weld (not due to Chambers but to my tinkering..don't ask)
Anyway, the frizzen was packed in Brownells heat paste for the build-up.  It was refitted for proper hammer/flint/frizzen allignment.  Shot the rifle (.62 smoothbore) yesterday and had about 50% misfires.  Noticed the flint was grooving the frizzen plate so apparently the welding softened it and it needs to be rehardened.  Aside from what one would assume the 'fit' of everything is fine and a replacement lock plate or frizzen would not be acceptable.  Bottom line is that I am NOT a metallurgist and cannot risk screwing this frizzen up.  For that reason I am 'sheepish' on just diving into the project as I usually do until I get it right.

Consideration-1:  L.C. Rice says to hold the tab with vise grips and heat frizzen face to 1550 deg [non magnetic] with a torch for one minute, submerge in salt water and swirl to quench. Draw at 375 for one hour in oven. [tang is OK without further drawing]  I'm sure Mr Rice knows well what he recommends but me getting the 1550 and holding it there for a minute seems iffy... I can just see me getting the screw hole area crystallized and brittle even though he says the vise grip jaws protect it!

Consideration-2: Ephriam says to put the frizzen in a tin can with leather and some bone, fold the top of the can over and toss into a good bed of coals. Bank the coals over the can and start a 30 minute time when it turns dull red. After 30 minutes toss it into a bucket of cold water. Puts carbon back into the frizzen and will not make it hard.

Opinions for a 'chicken' approach to a sure-fire solution would be appreciated.  :-\

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 11:03:31 PM »
I am no welder but am fairly sure the added steel is low carbon and will not harden unless you case harden it.  If the added material is on the face where the flint scrapes, then that part will not harden by simply heating and quenching, and carbon will have to be added.

The case hardening method you've been given can work but most folks like a longer soak at a higher temperature than a bed of coals without some directed air flow will normally supply, and I would go an hour or longer.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 11:16:06 PM »
If you have an oxy-acetylene torch or maybe a propane fired brick forge, the heat is no problem.   ;)  I like to soak mine with Kasenit (because I can) and quench in warm, dirty water.  I hold them so I can quench them edgewise.  Theoretically there's less chance of warpage that way (I've never had warping problems).

To temper, I put it face down on an anvil and with a propane torch, heat to dark blue (the first dark blue) up to the "angle".  I can even temper the front of the frizzen upright to a straw color for a little stress relief without bringing down the striking surface any. 
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 11:37:43 PM »
And Chambers says to NEVER quench any of our frizzens in water - they will crack and break!  They must be quenched in oil.  We hang our frizzens on a wire hook (coat hangers work fine) and heat the frizzen face until it turns a cherry red color.  This color temperature will require an acetylene torch, a single mapp gas and propane torch will just not get it to a high enough temperature.  We heat it until it hits the bright cherry red and then immediately quench it in the oil swirling it in the pot until it quits smoking and then leaving it in the oil to cool completely.  If this is a round faced lock with a very large frizzen we concentrate on keeping the majority of the striking surface at the red color, the portion of the face above where the flint strikes does not require the constant attention that the the spark bearing portion does.  Once it's cooled we draw it back in the kitchen oven at 375 for an hour, turning off the oven after an hour and letting the frizzen cool with the oven.

Here are our official Heat Treating instructions:
 
HOME HEAT TREATING THAT WORKS

The term “heat treat” refers to two operations: first to harden (heat and quench), and second to temper (soften) to a useful hardness.  The tool steels used in our locks will harden clear through when quenched (immersed) in oil alone, therefore water should not be used to quench since it can cause cracks to occur.

HARDENING
The most successful hardening equipment is some sort of open flame such as acetylene torch, forge, or propane torch (MAPP gas sold at Sears produces more heat than propane).  When using propane or MAPP gas two or more torches are needed for parts as large as the frizzen.
An electric furnace is not suitable for hardening since it has no flame and too little oxygen.  It can remove carbon leaving a soft surface, but it is excellent for tempering since it does not adversely affect carbon at these lower temperatures.
Twist each part on the end of short lengths of wire (so it can be hand held and quenched easily) and heat it uniformly to a bright red (1500 degrees) then quickly immerse it in a quart or two of light motor oil.  Move it around in the oil for about 30 seconds, then leave it in the oil to cool.  It should harden on the first try, but if not successful the same procedure can be used again.  Success means too hard to file.

TEMPERING
Hardened parts have to be softened to a useful hardness by heating to specified temperatures.  This can best be done with a furnace with a temperature indicator, or next best with a kitchen stove.
Another method that requires a little more skill, is by color.  The part must be polished and then placed on a half inch of sand in a container such as a large jar lid.  When heated slowly on the eye of a kitchen stove, in good light, colors can be seen in stages from straw, then tan, brown, purple, blue, gray.  Parts should be removed from the heat when the following appear, in order of their appearance:
      
FRIZZEN: pale yellow (375 deg. RC 62-64)
SEAR, TUMBLER, FLY: full blue with some fading into gray (600 deg. RC 54-56)
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline bgf

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 01:53:27 AM »
I am no welder but am fairly sure the added steel is low carbon and will not harden unless you case harden it.  If the added material is on the face where the flint scrapes, then that part will not harden by simply heating and quenching, and carbon will have to be added.

The case hardening method you've been given can work but most folks like a longer soak at a higher temperature than a bed of coals without some directed air flow will normally supply, and I would go an hour or longer.

I agree that the welding wire is probably low carbon, and it will have to be carburized/case hardened to strike sparks if it is on the striking surface.

If, however, it is not on the striking face, probably the frizzen was simply annealed by the welding heat and needs to be rehardened according to standard practice (heat and quench, etc.).

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 02:20:45 AM »
Pack it in a small box, and send it to Brad Emig.  You will get it back soon in perfect working order.

Ephraim

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 04:27:45 AM »
Look in the back of a Dixie catloge and you will find how to harden a frizzen (has worked for me for years) I know fokes will not agree with me have an open mind some old ways work.
Ephraim

Offline little joe

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2012, 04:47:56 AM »
Pay attention to Barbie

Ephraim

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 05:06:57 AM »
Was Turner stupid ?
Ephraim

Offline Rolf

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2012, 07:59:06 AM »
Barbie, I think might be a mistake in the instructions. You wrote "An electric furnace is not suitable for hardening since it has no flame and too little oxygen.". As I understand there is to much oxygen in an electric furnace and this causes a lot of scaling on parts. A flame reduces oxygen available and hinders scaling.

In theory a the atmosphere in a electric furnace with it's high oxygen content could remove carbon from the metal surface. I use an electric furnace for hardening knives and springs. Never had a problem with carbon removal. The parts are allways glass hard. But I get a lot of scaling which is a lot of work to remove. The main benefit with a programable furnace is that I can follow the heat treating instructions to the steel producer. This gives me better cutting edges on knives. Scaling on springs has not been a problem. Most of the scaling cracks and falls of when the spring is used.

I would think another problem with a furnace is that the toe of the frizzen would also be harden all the way through and would need to be more tempered than the frizzen face. Has anyone tried to use anti-scaling compounds when hardening a frizzen?

Best regards
Rolf


Offline LRB

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 01:30:17 PM »
  I use ATP anti scale when hardening my blades. It would have to work as well on a frizzen. Most of the ATP comes off in quench, and the rest usually comes off when wiped with a rag. Worse comes to worse, it washes off with hot water.
    NO, Turner wasn't stupid, but he was quick to believe in folk lore methods that have little to no scientific backing. Some these work, while some may even be dangerous.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 01:36:44 PM by LRB »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 02:20:43 PM »
Why didn't you just buy a new part?

As Barbie said quenching in water is a bad idea.
I have an engraved, cracked L&R frizzen on my bench as a reminder.
Casehardened parts do not have to be water quenched.
From what I have read TD Springfield receivers were casehardened by quenching in Sperm Whale Oil.
Would have to hit the books for a citation and its not worth it. I think its in a 1890s gov't manual reprint I have.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 02:42:20 PM »
Was Turner stupid ?
Ephraim

You REALLY want an answer to that?
In some ways yes, like when he went Elephant Hunting with a soft lead RB. Did not do his research or ignored the historical accounts. Fail. Quenching is MATERIAL SPECIFIC in many cases. So when the people who MAKE the part say no water quench then use oil, its not rocket science. Warmed oil, something like ATF or SAE 10 cut with diesel or Marvels Mystery Oil works fine. Cold or even room temp oil will not harden properly in many cases. I have a piece of 1" steel plate about 4" square I heat then put in the oil to warm it. How big and how hot the piece needs to be depends on how much oil  you need to warm.
I have water quenched a quite a few frizzens over the years. But engraving one then having it crack I did not like.

Dan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 02:44:46 PM by Dphariss »
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline tallbear

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2012, 03:27:49 PM »
There is no one on the planet who has hardened and tempered more Chambers frizzens than Jim Chambers.Why would you not follow Jims instructions ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2012, 03:47:20 PM »
Mitch,

You know she's just a "dumb ole girl".

You know I'm kidding Barbie..... We love ya!!
In His grip,

Dane

Bill

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2012, 04:08:24 PM »
It speaks very highly of Chambers (Barbie) to voluntarily post instructions/advice in an attempt to help one of our members fix the results of "tinkering".  ;D
Especially when so many places would say send us a check for a replacement part.
Kudos as usual to Chambers

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2012, 05:39:52 PM »
Mitch,

You know she's just a "dumb ole girl".

You know I'm kidding Barbie..... We love ya!!

Don't make me put you on the naughty list!   ;D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 05:40:21 PM by Blackpowder Barbie »
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »
You all are free to try any method, just know that in the majority of cases where one has quenched in water and the frizzen has cracked we can tell upon looking at the broken part.  So thus that wonderful Chambers warranty becomes null and void for lack of following Chambers directions and the free replacement of a broken part went out with the quench water.  ;)   :D
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

TINKER

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2012, 06:04:13 PM »
Why didn't you just buy a new part?

As Barbie said quenching in water is a bad idea.
I have an engraved, cracked L&R frizzen on my bench as a reminder.
Casehardened parts do not have to be water quenched.
From what I have read TD Springfield receivers were casehardened by quenching in Sperm Whale Oil.
Would have to hit the books for a citation and its not worth it. I think its in a 1890s gov't manual reprint I have.
Dan

I really appreciate the responses from everyone.  Barbie/Jim obviously would know the best thing to do/not do with their parts. 
Mr. Phariss' "new part" question prompts me to make a statement I was going to avoid.  I would have bought a new frizzen in a heartbeat or even a new lock if I thought it would drop-in and everything including the touch hole properly aligns.  They won't.

[My red faced confession] Like almost anyone who attends this forum if only they will admit it, "I was participating in the LEARNING CURVE" (No, not shouting).
The frizzen to pan fit, in my opinion, needed a slight tweeking for a zero fit.  I started prussian bluing and light filing to correct it...or so I thought.  Little more here and a little more there.  Before I realized it the frizzen face was too far back for proper relation to the hammer/flint.  GOOD GRIEF! (that is hollering) Why the bloody $#*! didn't I realize that was going to happen?  Thus, the build up for proper alignment.  Now you know.  But I suppose most who read this confession have never made a goofy mistake like this...  or, Dans water quinched L&R frizzen, Eh?

Now I know for sure there is one thing I will NEVER do again and that is to touch a frizzen base with a file!  Even though this does not reflect well on my abilities, I am a stickler for squeak-fit inletting and fitting (that is what got me into trouble here).  Trust me when I say a new frizzen or lock will not fit back in to "my" satisfaction.

It took me two years to take this rifle down off the wall to test fire it as I had a suspicion this was going to be the result and need to be addressed.

Again thanks to all.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2012, 06:31:11 PM »
Easy to replace the pan if it's a Germanic lock with a detachable pan.  But you've been through enough!   ;D
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2012, 09:21:14 PM »
Some of you probably know Willy Boitnott who worked in the Armory at Friendship for years and was capable of repairing some of the most ridiculous junk imagineable.I recall a man bringing in a cheap flintlock that wouldn't begin to spark and wanted to know if it could be hardened. I told him I wasn't working there but Willy could help him and if he hardened the frizzen in the spitoon it would make green sparks and last a lifetime.
I think the guy actually believed that absurdity but maybe Willy straightened him out or at least I hope so.

Bob Roller

Offline heinz

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2012, 09:29:51 PM »
Bob, Willie probably soled the frizzen with something that would spark green and sent him on his way.  Apparently it worked forever because Willie would have told him to come see you if there was a problem  :)
Willie did some amazing stuff in that shack at Friendship.  He kept me shooting a couple of times.
kind regards, heinz

TINKER

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2012, 01:42:43 AM »
You all are free to try any method, just know that in the majority of cases where one has quenched in water and the frizzen has cracked we can tell upon looking at the broken part.  So thus that wonderful Chambers warranty becomes null and void for lack of following Chambers directions and the free replacement of a broken part went out with the quench water.  ;)   :D

I am relieved to have had no Hells-Fire poured upon me... guess that means about everyone here has done something stupid before ;D
As previously stated, that I am no metallurgist, I will toss out one more thought, specifically hoping Barbie will bounce it off of Jim.  The wire weld build-up comprises  less than 1/8" on the bottom of the frizzen and runs no farther up the frizzens striker face.  As opinion suggests wire weld to be low carbon, what would be the chances of doing Ephriams thing (bone and leather in a pinched closed can in a hot wood fire for 30 minutes) and NOT quenching in water, letting it air cool... or, maybe tossing the whole sealed can in oil?!?
..THEN doing the cherry-red heat and oil quench as Chambers recommends.  Would this induce more carbon into the frizzen casting and/or wire-weld; or, will it not and be something frivolous?

This sucker IS going to be fixed.. just mapping out the plan of attack..

Offline Jim Chambers

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2012, 02:05:08 AM »
In the past when I had a frizzen that would not harden and suspected it did not have enough carbon, I would pack it in a three inch piece of pipe (with screw caps on both ends) packed full of leather charcoal.  I'd throw that in the wood stove and let it cook all night in the coals.  Next day I'd fish it out, remove the frizzen, and harden and temper it as usual.   Never had one fail to spark after that treatment.  Basically, the more carbon you can get in the frizzen the better it will spark.
This would probably work on the welded frizzen unless the welding rod used had some chrome in it.  Any metal with even a little chrome won't spark no matter what you do to it in my experience.

TINKER

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Re: Frizzen treatment (again)
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2012, 02:26:57 AM »
Thanks Jim, that is what I was looking for ;D

I have three rifles and all of them have your fine locks on them.  Keep up the good work.
Godspeed