Author Topic: Wooden patchbox lid (Read 21968 times)

horseman · « **on:** May 21, 2012, 10:12:46 PM »

I have a J. P. Beck with the wooden patchbox lid I need to shape. Neither of my construction books cover this very well. I would appreciate any and all advice as to shaping the lid. I had thought about getting a brass lid, but I want to use the wood one. The humidity here in the mountains isn't that high; not as low as down in the desert, but not bad. Thank you for your time and help. Bud.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2012, 11:33:07 PM »

make some grooved jaws to hold the lid while shaping. Saves the fingers a lot of skin.

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2012, 02:45:52 AM »

Bud,

Acers system is a good set up.

Another method that's a little more "low tech", is to glue a piece of 1"X4" stock (can be any length) on the bottom of the patch box, WITH A PIECE OF NEWSPAPER GLUED BETWEEN THE 1"x4" AND THE PATCH BOX. Use regular white wood glue. The 1"X4" can be clamped in a vice for shaping the batch pox. This allows you to easily shape the edges as well. Once you have the patch box shaped, a chisel and some light taps will separate the lid from the 1"X4" stock. Any newspaper left on the underside of the lid can be easily scrapped off.

The lid itself should have a nice taper on it from back to front. This is an I. Berlin style rifle, but the concept is the same.

Hope that helps some...

Ed

blunderbuss · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2012, 03:22:06 AM »

originals many times had a two piece lid glued together

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2012, 03:58:48 AM »

Quote from: blunderbuss on May 22, 2012, 03:22:06 AM

originals many times had a two piece lid glued together

Sure about that?

smshea · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2012, 04:27:21 AM »

Yea, I d have to second that. At least not on any Lebanon Co. gun I ever handled or Lehigh come to think of it.

Either way, I wouldnt think the top piece gets any easier to hold in a vice.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2012, 08:22:39 PM »

Few modern builders make the lids thin enough. Usually way too fat. It's a hard concept to appreciate at first, how much wood you have to take off.

Stophel · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2012, 10:02:52 PM »

So far, I have not seen an original gun with a two piece box lid. Now, I've not exactly handled a whole bunch of 'em. I have been assured that they exist, but I have no example to cite.

When I first started, I figured that surely it was easier to make them from two pieces and glue them together, so that's the way I did it. FINALLY, I thought I'd try one in one piece. Holy cow! It is WAAAAAAYYYY easier to make one in one piece than in two pieces. No contest.

The biggest problem I see among modern wood box makers is not so much that they are too thick, but too SQUARE. Instead of a nice smooth round dome, they are often nearly flat across the top with just the corners knocked off.

Elnathan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2012, 10:30:45 PM »

RCA 2 - the Caspar Zelner rifle - has a two-piece lid. That is where Bivens got the idea, and I believe it was he who popularized the practice of making two-piece lids. He wrote that he had seen several others made that way, but didn't elaborate which ones and also noted that the majority had lids made from a single piece.

Don Getz · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2012, 01:09:34 AM »

Shape of the lid. Draw a football on a piece of paper, then draw a lateral line thru the balll about 1/4 of the way down,
this is about what it should look like. I liked what Tom did in making a fixture that had dovetail cut into it. I made one
for the last wood box I made, it worked out great...........Don

AndyThomas · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2012, 02:00:21 AM »

Quote from: Stophel on May 22, 2012, 10:02:52 PM

When I first started, I figured that surely it was easier to make them from two pieces and glue them together, so that's the way I did it. FINALLY, I thought I'd try one in one piece. Holy cow! It is WAAAAAAYYYY easier to make one in one piece than in two pieces. No contest.

me too!
Andy

Eric Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2012, 02:17:29 AM »

This is good info.

Jeff Peters · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2012, 03:30:47 AM »

Ed,
Nice photo.
Do you have one of the same patch box looking at the side of the stock?
Thanks
Jeff

horseman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2012, 04:01:56 AM »

Thank you all for your replys. Alot of good and useful information to use.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2012, 04:38:34 AM »

Would a guy be steping out of bounds if he also put the slightest tapper in the width of the lid. Say 1/16(1/32 per side). As the stock profile tapperes that direction anyway I would think just a small tapper would make the lid less clunky. Smylee

Ed Wenger · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2012, 04:49:30 AM »

Jeff,

Here's a pic from the side...

Smylee, in general, most are tapered as you described, and I agree, the taper adds to the flow of the piece. This particular lid should maybe have been slanted up just ever so slightly...

Ed

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2012, 03:23:54 PM »

I taper the box opening dovetails from narrow at the front, to wider at the rear of the opening.

At the head of the lid, a dovetail will pull the lid down when the lid is home.

As soon as the release is popped, and the lid moves back a little, it suddenly moves very easily. A lot less chance of binding due to humidity changes, yet the lid locks up nice and tight when home.

Ionian · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2012, 04:32:29 PM »

Tom is this a new rifle you are working on? Sure would like to see more pictures, beautiful work as usual.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2012, 08:01:54 PM »

Quote from: Ionian on May 23, 2012, 04:32:29 PM

Tom is this a new rifle you are working on? Sure would like to see more pictures, beautiful work as usual.

No, that is an old rifle now, but still new, and unfinished. I got bored and moved on to other guns. I'll get back to it some day. Link to photos: http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Jaeger/

Jeff Peters · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2012, 09:42:42 PM »

Ed,
Thank you for the photo
Jeff

bama · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2012, 06:53:54 PM »

Ed that is a very nice rifle.

I have made them both ways, one piece and two pieces. I prefer making them as one piece but if I can not slab off a piece of the butt stock wide enough to make the lid one piece then I will make a two piece lid. I don't know if one method is more correct but I would think the builders of old would do the same thing, but maybe not. Who knows for sure.

JDK · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2012, 07:08:42 PM »

Quote from: bama on May 25, 2012, 06:53:54 PM

....but if I can not slab off a piece of the butt stock wide enough to make the lid one piece then I will make a two piece lid.

That is the best argument I've heard for making a two piece box!

Just goes to show that Yankee ingenuity isn't just a Yankee trait!

Thanks Bama.

Enjoy, J.D.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #22 on:** May 25, 2012, 08:32:02 PM »

I think it's pretty safe to say that original two piece box lids on longrifles are exceedingly rare. Can anyone point to examples of longrifle box lids made in this manner that can safely be assumed to be original work?

JTR · « **Reply #23 on:** May 25, 2012, 08:58:16 PM »

I've seen my fair share of wood box guns with what I'd consider the original lids (wood condition, tool marks, etc as the stock), but none made as two piece lids, either nailed, screwed or glued.
To tell the truth, I doubt that a two piece lid would have stayed glued together all these years, considering the glues of the time.

John

blunderbuss · « **Reply #24 on:** May 26, 2012, 12:59:04 AM »

I've seen wheelocks with glued on lock mortices still in tact the two piece patch box is mentioned in ''Historical Arms making Technology '' I have two that have been with me in rain and bad weather for 30 years and are in fine shape . PS the glue they had back then is still holding some fine violins etc together

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Author Topic: Wooden patchbox lid (Read 21968 times)

blunderbuss

Jeff Peters

Ionian

Jeff Peters

blunderbuss