Wooden patchbox lid

[Jim Kibler]

Blunderbuss,

What volume of JHAT is the two piece wooden box lid discussed in?  What does it specifically say regarding this subject?  Hide glue is less tolerant to moisture than modern glues. 

[blunderbuss]

 

  Might think about Stradivarius violins and other lesser violins staying together a couple of hundred years with what ever glue they were using. I'll look for the volume

[Jim Kibler]

People don't generally play violins out in the rain.  It's clear you have made boxes in two pieces and want to believe it was an accepted historical practice.  Sorry, the evidence doesn't support it.

[bob in the woods]

I don't believe that the box lids were anything but 1 piece construction as normally made, but-
there are instances of stocks themselves being made with additional pieces glued on. The glue was hide glue, and it has held up rather well. I'm sure the finish helped.

[blunderbuss]

then you have your opinion and I have the facts

[Eric Smith]

I really can't see old makers making two piece lids, they were to good for that. Why on earth would that be an option for such skilled men?

[blunderbuss]

 

Why in your words such skilled men piece together a stock? If there are two ways to do somthing someone will be doing it that way. Look at how many ways there were to make triggerguards,butt plates ,barrels. If patch boxes were only made one way it's the only thing on a weapon that was made only one way.

[Eric Smith]

I don't know. Just guessing. I'm a newbie.

[blunderbuss]

  

  Try this instead of using complicated equipment take two strips of thin wood
and an angle to measure the bottom piece of wood and a flat rasp and cut your bottom piece to that angle ,both sides, using the rasp, clamp and glue it to the top piece, a little more rounding and some sanding and you have a patch box lid. If it comes loose in the next 30 years glue it back.
Here's another thought cut your angles in the stock for the box it self and fit the under side piece of lid to that ,that way if you make a mistake just replace that piece of wood,when you make a good bottom part glue the top part of the lid on and your good to go.

[JTR]

I have the facts

And what would those 'Facts' be?
That you might have read something in JHAT that might or might not be completely correct?
Or that you made two of the things 30 years ago that are still working fine?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that no one ever made a two piece lid, just that I've never seen one.
But then you have to ask yourself why one of the old guys would have made a two piecer, when the guys here say its easier to make a one piece lid?
It's not like there was any shortage of wood back then.
And if making a one piece lid was faster and easier, why would the old guy waste the time making a two piece one, given that time was money?

John

[blunderbuss]

 

  See the 9th post on the first page of this discussion by Elnathan

I can make a lid useing a flat rasp an angle and some clamps I don't need a complicated machine

[Habu]

Almost every stringed instrument from 200+ years ago has been apart a number of times, for repairs/remodeling/etc.  A better comparison would be that of furniture--and most surviving 18th century furniture has been repaired/reglued/etc.   

Hide glue is great stuff to work with, and under ideal circumstances it can last a long time, but rifles tend not to be used only in ideal circumstances. 

 

[blunderbuss]

 

  In the book "Rifles of Colonial America'' by George Shumway volume 1 page 16
Last paragraph concerning a rifle by Casper Zelner :"The wood patchbox lid shows damage by fire ,but restoration is planned. The lid was made from two separate pieces glued together, a common European practice "  What they did in Europe they did here, so the traditional gunsmiths here would have continued to make some  two piece patch boxes. Rifle is 1740. BTW the glue is still holding and will keep holding unless immersed in water for a long period of time. Rain will not hurt it I have had mine in the rain many many times over the last 30years and the patch box lid shows no sign of coming apart.

[Jim Kibler]

You have a fine theory there Mr. Blunderbuss, but unfortunately surviving evidence doesn't substantiate it.  Just because things were done in Europe doesn't mean they were done here.  Iron mounts in the 18th century are a perfect example. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't know how things were done back then, because I'm not old enough.

But I am old enough to think of making my job easier. This plane takes many hours out of the job, and puts the two piece box out of the park for me. The only reason I'd make a two piece box would be if I had a rare piece of wood for the cover. But that would be for European style work, not American.

[bob in the woods]

That is fantastic !  Add that to the list of tools I need to make. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Bob, I have a drawing of this, if you wish PM me with your email address. Everybody's welcome.

http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Plane%20for%20patchbox/

[black ed]

on the "old " 2 piece sliding patch box lids were the 2 pieces of the same wood.
is the grain of the exterior and interior piece running with or against  each other.
was making a 2 piece lid a structural or cosmetic decision.
Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

I'm imagining it might be easier to make the dovetailed insert, fit it, then file it down flush to the stock. Then take it out and glue the top piece to it. The buttstock might have to be taken down just a little more to allow a free sliding fit.

[smshea]

I'm still not seeing to many examples of original, two piece, American boxes pointed out here. I think it mostly was not done. Ive seen quite a few sliding lids that I was pretty sure were replacements and none of them were two piece either. The one piece box seems like it might not be easier but I can tell you that after the first one, they go pretty quick and regardless of the possible exception , they were likely the rule.

[rich pierce]

Scott, I agree.  So many guns are built of precarves or pre-shaped stocks now that folks often don't have a "matching" piece of wood for the lid.  Original makers probably seldom faced this dilemma and 1) used whatever they had whether it matched or not or 2) had lots of wood scraps and blanks laying around.  A 2 piece lid would make sense on a fancy Euro gun with an ivory lid "cover" etc.

[smshea]

Yep! This was a piece of cherry that was laying on my shop floor that appeared to be about the right size. The customer was cool with it and so was I!

[Kermit]

Birdseye lid in a plain riftcut stock.

[Jim Kibler]

I've never tried to slab a piece of wood off the side of the butstock to use so it matches.  Many times I choose a piece of wood that is intentionally different in figure or character.  Other times I just pick a piece where the grain / figure is such that it doesn't clash with the rest of the stock.  In looking at original box lids, I don't think there was much of an attempt to match figure in any way.

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't try to match lid to stock. It looks too contrived for my taste.

Considering how easy a lid is to lose, why not make it out of plain wood? Easier to make, easier to replace. Conserve your energy.