French Trade Axes

[Shreckmeister]

I am hoping someone might be able to give me information on the period and touchmarks on these
axes.  My photo is not clear but one appears to be a 4 sided star with an 0 in the center.  The other
a W, but there might be more.  Look familiar to anyone?

[Tatonka]

I have almost identical axes sitting right behind me at the moment.  My flared blade axe does not appear to have a touch mark at all.  The other axe has a "PB" touch mark.

[Shreckmeister]

Any idea of their origin and age?

[T.C.Albert]

http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/

this link may help?
tc

[Tatonka]

Any idea of their origin and age?

I'm pretty sure your second axe with the "W" is of a style most often associated with mid 18th century or earlier.  Some of the good axe books I know reference the exact style and place an early date on it.  Numerous of the style have been found in North America.  I will have to go back and look through some of them when I get a chance.  I do really like that old haft on there.  I once saw a photo of an old indian axe that was supposedly recovered from the site of the wyoming massacre by one of the survivors.  It was very crude.  The haft looked almost exactly like your haft IIRC.  I don't remember where I saw the photo.  Google didn't bring up anything for me.

As for the first axe, I would like to know the date and origin myself.  The large round eye and large flared blade suggests an early date as well (to me anyways).  I would guess european in origin, possibly french.  I'm sure someone will be along to tell us that it's an imported chinese tool.  

Here are mine:

[Shreckmeister]

Tatonka,   Thanks for sharing.  The one I have with a W looks very similar to yours.  Bought it at
Walmart a month ago and just took it out of the acid  Tied the haft to a tree along the Allegheny
and let it float there for 3 years. LOL   Auctioneer said it came from an older collector
from Altoona PA, but I didn't get a chance to find out more.  Maybe Mark Tyler would know who had it.
Mark?

[Luke MacGillie]

If you look on the fur trade ax website that was posted earlier, specificly on the fakes page, you will see that the 2d ax posted is one made either by the Collins Ax company or a competitor, for sale in South America in the 20th Century.

Truthfully neither of these axes look French, or 18th Century North American to me.  The best website for identifying French trade Ax's is no more, as the person who put it up got a book deal, and well, who would buy a book if all the photos are online for free........

Sorry to have to be the bad guy and tell you that

[Tatonka]

If you look on the fur trade ax website that was posted earlier, specificly on the fakes page, you will see that the 2d ax posted is one made either by the Collins Ax company or a competitor, for sale in South America in the 20th Century.

Truthfully neither of these axes look French, or 18th Century North American to me.  The best website for identifying French trade Ax's is no more, as the person who put it up got a book deal, and well, who would buy a book if all the photos are online for free........

Sorry to have to be the bad guy and tell you that

 

Collins axes were essentially made machine made copies of very early north american axe designs.  This design was an early style which was used in north america.  Collins made a very similar design for south america (see "modelo no. 694").  However, it did not have a round eye, and it did not take on the appearance of hand forged iron.  The axe pictured on the website, as far as I can tell, is not a Collins Co. axe.  Just my $.02.

A few examples:

[Luke MacGillie]

Can you show me axes of this type, from an accedited dig, not from a personal collection, not from a sale page ect, something that has proof that would hold up in court that axes of this type were traded in North America in the 18th Century?

[mr. no gold]

Luke, current academic standards make it incumbent on you, as challanger, to produce the proof of your demands. If you have it, bring it forth. Otherwise it is empty.
Dick   

[James Rogers]

Luke, current academic standards make it incumbent on you, as challanger, to produce the proof of your demands. If you have it, bring it forth. Otherwise it is empty.
Dick   

You sure Dick? You are asking him in the negative to show proof something did not exist. He is asking in the positive for evidence that something existed.

[mr. no gold]

James, his point can be proved. To do so would require someone to review all of the Indian/Colonial excavation reports done east of the Mississippi River through academic institution research, cultural resource management, or public agency excavations for styles of axe heads that have been recovered. A big task! It will be complicated further by the fact that many of the reports will not be available to anyone who does not have credentials and/or a solid research design. This is to protect the sites from looting, a policy I very much agree with, as a professional archaeologist.   I am sure that the information Luke is asking for is out there. He just needs to find it. That's all.
Dick
   

[Tatonka]

Luke, current academic standards make it incumbent on you, as challanger, to produce the proof of your demands. If you have it, bring it forth. Otherwise it is empty.
Dick   

You sure Dick? You are asking him in the negative to show proof something did not exist. He is asking in the positive for evidence that something existed.

Well they weren't photoshopped I don't believe.  They apparently do exist.  I showed some photos from Hothem and Hartzler books showing very similar axe heads to the one he claimed was a Collins Co. axe (that doesn't look north american to him) which place the axe heads as being used in north america.  At this point he can disprove Hothem and Hartzler if he wants to.

[Luke MacGillie]

http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/id4.html

A 1940 made ax published in a book as being period is found right on that page.  Thats what happens when you publish a book with no peer review.

The Strawman arguement at lack of access is just that, a Strawman arguement.  Local libraries have JSTOR accounts, not to mention that colleges and universites allow people from the local area lending privlidges.  Perhaps Im just a silver spoon type, growing up with the Dressler Collection before there was a bunker, and living outside of Bloomington IN, and IU is just special?  I dont think so.  More and more the university Arch departments are publishing on the web their dig reports.

Like say this, actual documented French ax head from La Belle......

http://ccmuseum.pastperfect-online.com/38892cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=B2BCEB8D-F79A-416F-AF19-471072636635;type=101

Another web Arch report on French Axes:
http://www.wyandot.org/petun/RB%201%20to%2020/PRI12.pdf
Images from this report found here: 
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&biw=1024&bih=452&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=qsOE8B85OHoIcM:&imgrefurl=http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/kichisibi/k400-hachee.shtml&docid=cCKvYhyH-UI7hM&imgurl=http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/kichisibi/images/hache.jpg&w=504&h=286&ei=BTPQT-2hAc_trQej6K2IDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=551&vpy=21&dur=2547&hovh=169&hovw=298&tx=170&ty=84&sig=103540711967087499368&page=1&tbnh=95&tbnw=167&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0,i:94

[Luke MacGillie]

So to continue, since the board software gets hokey when you have long posts:

If 99% of institutional recovered French axs follow one overarching pattern, but the 1% anomoly pattern, that also happened to be made in the 20th century for trade to South America is the predominate pattern among hobby collectors, does that not raise a red flag for anyone but me?

[Tatonka]

http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/id4.html

A 1940 made ax published in a book as being period is found right on that page.  Thats what happens when you publish a book with no peer review.

The Strawman arguement at lack of access is just that, a Strawman arguement.  Local libraries have JSTOR accounts, not to mention that colleges and universites allow people from the local area lending privlidges.  Perhaps Im just a silver spoon type, growing up with the Dressler Collection before there was a bunker, and living outside of Bloomington IN, and IU is just special?  I dont think so.  More and more the university Arch departments are publishing on the web their dig reports.

Like say this, actual documented French ax head from La Belle......

http://ccmuseum.pastperfect-online.com/38892cgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=B2BCEB8D-F79A-416F-AF19-471072636635;type=101

Another web Arch report on French Axes:
http://www.wyandot.org/petun/RB%201%20to%2020/PRI12.pdf
Images from this report found here: 
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&biw=1024&bih=452&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=qsOE8B85OHoIcM:&imgrefurl=http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/kichisibi/k400-hachee.shtml&docid=cCKvYhyH-UI7hM&imgurl=http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/kichisibi/images/hache.jpg&w=504&h=286&ei=BTPQT-2hAc_trQej6K2IDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=551&vpy=21&dur=2547&hovh=169&hovw=298&tx=170&ty=84&sig=103540711967087499368&page=1&tbnh=95&tbnw=167&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0,i:94

Well bless your heart....

[Luke MacGillie]

Well bless your heart....

I may be a Hoosier, but my Family is Virginian, and I lived in Ft Bragg NC for a number of years, so "Bless your pretty Little Heart" right back

[Tatonka]

Well bless your heart....

I may be a Hoosier, but my Family is Virginian, and I lived in Ft Bragg NC for a number of years, so "Bless your pretty Little Heart" right back

You are a hoosier until you present accredited archeological proof otherwise.   

[Shreckmeister]

I notice much of the discussion centers around the axe with the W on it.  The other flared axe with
the star and 0 in it has on the opposite side a cartouche with something raised in the center, not
a lion passant but similar layout.  Does that tell you all anything about it?

[Chuck Burrows]

Moderator hat on - all right folks lets keep it civil and no need for personal comments of any kind cute or otherwise.......if need be just agree to disagree

[Shreckmeister]

Just to make it even more interesting.  I'd like to hear thoughts on this axe as well.

[Luke MacGillie]

You are a hoosier until you present accredited archeological proof otherwise.   

Well just how many reports from digs of French or French allied native sites that lack of an ax of that type is going to be "Proof" to you? 

Or will it always be "Well you have not posted every report,  your supressing information, so it might be in the ones you have not posted"

As far as Im concerned, Ive proved my point, show me something that is not self published, or an auction catalog showing me that the "Collins" style ax was a common French supplied trade good in North America during their reign here. 

As to the other ax, it sure does resemble an Atlanta Cutlery Viking ax from about 1986 that has been aged and stamped........

[Luke MacGillie]

Just to make it even more interesting.  I'd like to hear thoughts on this axe as well.

That one looks better, perhaps English, or perhaps even American late 18th to mid 19th Century.  From the photos I can only see the forge weld as a straight line, not the "Y" that you would expect from where the steel bit was inserted.  But it could be earlier.........

[rich pierce]

That big axe is a common pattern and it's easy to see the steel bit welded in.  I've seen similar ones pretty well documented from last quarter of the 1700's to mid-1800's.  Some/many had a more oval or oblong eye to prevent twisting of the handle, and a wedge of iron welded in at the eye to make the transition from the eye to the blade smoother.  It's a real nice one and not all mushroomed up.  However, such axes have been made and sold/traded around the world even later than the period mentioned, so provenance would hekp us narrow down the possibilities.

[Shreckmeister]

Regarding the big axe, the owner states ""Found in a severely damaged Barn last year in Brimfield Mass last year after the Huge Tornado- the Barn was late 18th Century- this was purchased from the Woman who owned the Barn and lives there.  8 1/2 icnhes long- blade 5 1/2 inches - the eye 2 inches, wieghs 5 1/2 pounds., The height of the eye is 2 3/4 , this is unaltered and is just as it was found""