Author Topic: For you Golden Mean types  (Read 17186 times)

Offline Kermit

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 10:57:00 PM »
I'm not even going to click the link.  :o
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Offline Long Ears

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 11:05:25 PM »
Nope, I'm not going there either!

jimc2

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 11:14:46 PM »
Darn i looked.am i doomed???????

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 11:27:56 PM »
Wow, They are proud of them too!!!
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 12:25:48 AM »
 Not A g a i n ::)

  Tim C.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 12:27:15 AM »
Regardless of what you think about the use of this ratio in rifle building, the text from the Woodcraft site is interesting SO I WILL GO THERE:
Most woodworkers know about the Golden Section, which is also referred to as the Golden Ratio, the Golden Mean, or simply as phi, the Greek term for the ratio of 1 to 1.618. This use of this ratio to generate pleasing proportions has fascinated countless designers and craftsmen for over 2400 years, governing the dimensions of buildings (like the Parthenon), furniture and even everyday objects like credit cards. When it just looks right, it’s a sure bet that the Golden Ratio is at work.

It’s hard to overstate the importance of using the Golden Ratio when designing a piece of furniture. From the simplest dimensions (like the length and width of a tabletop) to complex proportions (graduated drawer sizes, frame-and-panel assemblies and hardware layout, just to name a few), adhering to this so-called “divine ratio” (yet another name) is your guarantee that the overall composition will be pleasing to the eye.
Gary
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 04:12:31 AM by Daryl »
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2012, 01:03:25 AM »
I do believe in following your eye rather than a fixed ratio.  What I find fascinating is how often what is pleasing to the eye fits that ratio.  Creeeeppyyyy.

Coryjoe

Vomitus

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2012, 01:16:30 AM »
  I looked!....and didn't turn to salt. Acer, it's OK.

eddillon

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2012, 01:27:34 AM »
All these years I thought the "Golden Rule" was "Do unto others..................."

Offline JDK

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2012, 02:37:38 AM »
$29.99 for the small set?!?! :o

I think I have some Popsicle sticks around...maybe I'll just make my own. ;D

Enjoy, J.D.
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Offline Kermit

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2012, 03:20:28 AM »
JDK--and others. Popsicle sticks are close.  :D

I do NOT use the golden mean, but I do divide things proportionally at times. I use a shop-made sector. Jim Tolpin introduced me to the notion while he was working on his article. This (silent) video will give you a quickie tutorial.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/jim-tolpin%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98secret-of-the-sector%E2%80%99

No reason not to make up one with two marks at 1 unit from the vertex and another at 1.618. Then for the cost of two sticks, a hinge, and the dividers you already probably have you can expand or reduce using black magic math.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2012, 06:04:28 AM »
Boy oh boy, isnt it wonderfull how just a few words can bring so many people together for a discussion. It almost seems as though there is no middle ground on this subject. I am with the group that thinks that when it looks good it is proportionaly (sp) right. If it works out to the aforsaid numbers, then so be it. I have read Aristotal, Platto, and a few others, and think these fellas were some pretty smart guys but they never seen a good longrifle so I have something on them and entitled to my opinion.   Smylee

Vomitus

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2012, 07:08:44 AM »
I do believe in following your eye rather than a fixed ratio.  What I find fascinating is how often what is pleasing to the eye fits that ratio.  Creeeeppyyyy.

Coryjoe
Amen

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2012, 03:38:32 PM »
I do believe in following your eye rather than a fixed ratio.  What I find fascinating is how often what is pleasing to the eye fits that ratio.  Creeeeppyyyy.

Coryjoe
Amen

That's called good composition..........

Offline JTR

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2012, 03:49:07 PM »
I (heart) the Golden Mean!  ;D

John
John Robbins

Offline tallbear

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2012, 04:08:06 PM »
  The Golden Mean is one of those chicken or the egg type discussions.Is it pleasing to the eye because Golden Mean was used or it's pleasing and happens to fit the Golden Mean.I guess I am one of the few who will admit to using it in studying original work and  laying out a contemporary rifle(Yes I have a set of proportional dividers ;) ).Coming from a furniture,cabinet making backround it was something I have always used in my work.The Golden Mean proportions  show up too often in original  longrifles to dismiss it's use completely.It is a tool like any other and it has it's place in your tool box.I am not saying it has to be rigidly followed but it will give you a starting point sometimes and lets you go from there.There is no dispute that the ratio can produce pleasing results or if you rather  the results are pleasing.


Mitch
 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 04:14:27 PM by aka tallbear »

Offline Kermit

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2012, 05:07:50 PM »
I'm of the opinion that the reason the Golden Mean/Fibonacchi Sequence is pleasing to us humans is because of the frequency with which it occurs in nature. Google "Fibonacchi sequence in nature." Could be that we are pretty much hardwired to produce these proportions, and that the Greeks and Fibonacchi just used mathematics to describe the phenomenon.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Jay Close

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2012, 07:14:07 PM »
That tool from Woodcraft Supply looks fun, but a set of proportional dividers from Ebay will prove more useful.

Not only will it adjust to a 3:5 ratio, but it can do 5:8  (closer to the Golden Ratio) and a long list of other proportions. It can function much like the sector mentioned earlier. According to the instructional booklet that came with mine, this tool is way smarter than I am.

By the way, proportional dividers are illustrated in Wkyke's catalog of watch and clockmaker tools published in England in the mid 18th c.

Without wanting to diminish the importance of the Golden Ratio and the scholarship that has surrounded it, it is but one proportional system among others. Emphasis on it has over shadowed another approach that was central to an 18th c. design education: understanding the orders of Greek architecture.

These orders were a modular systems based on even multiples or simple divisions of some base unit. Chippendale's Director devotes the opening  chapters to the correct execution of these orders as a foundation for  furniture design. I have also seen 18th design books for architectural ironwork in which gates and screens were explicitly described as done in the "Ionick" taste etc.

Of course, as the ultimate arbiter of what looks right is the human eye, there is bound to be an overlap in proportional approaches to design, or even multiple approaches used depending on the context. In period style ironwork, for example, it often seems like the overall design falls into various expressions of the Golden Ratio, but details express simple multiples of the dimensions of some basic motif.

Did 18th c. American gunsmiths explicitly apply these approaches to guide their design decisions? I don't know. If they did, they didn't seem inclined to write about that or much else beyond the business aspects of their work. On the other hand, other tradesmen in Europe and England did explicitly write about such things. It's hard to imagine that formally trained gunstockers like Albrecht would have been ignorant of formal design principles. How much of that knowledge might have been retained and passed on as the longrifle evolved is a fascinating question.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2012, 09:57:04 PM »
One of the things I like about longrifles is the amazing variety in shapes.  For example, Bucks County rifles are very long-wristed compared to a Christians Spring rifle by Oerter or the Marshall rifle.  As mentioned by EK, Niehardt and the Molls had very different approaches to the vertical positioning and the size (length) of the cheekpiece.  Somehow the different designs "work".  While certain proportions do occur commonly in living things, in nature you have the bluebird and the great blue heron, the zebra and the giraffe, the sunfish and the garfish.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2012, 11:33:45 PM »
and the giraffish...that's where the Lord forgot his proportional dividers and winged it.


Giraffish
Websters: noun: half fish, half giraffe. adjective: man with a long neck. (old African)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:36:04 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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greybeard

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2012, 11:55:58 PM »
HERE WE GO ROUND THE MULBERRY BUSH!!!!      AGAIN.
Bob

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2012, 11:56:19 PM »
But seriously, in the animal kingdom, we find examples which seem strange or odd to us. But they are perfectly proportioned for their task of living and evolving.

So, too, the longrifle is proportioned for mankind's use in the environment. It stands to reason that nature is as much an influence in the design as technology is. I think that is what is most appealing to me about the rifle.

I do not doubt the Golden Mean, nor the use of it. I think it's harder to apply it to organic forms, such as a longrifle or a fish, than it is a rectangular piece of furniture.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline mark esterly

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2012, 12:35:28 AM »
would be interesting to find out how many gun makers or "stockers" had a background in or also worked at furniture making.
living in the hope of HIS coming.......

mattdog

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Re: For you Golden Mean types
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2012, 04:32:00 PM »
I must feel like typing today so I'll speak up on this controversial topic.

I am a Golden Mean type.  It was taught in multiple art and Industrial Arts classes that I took in my younger years and has served me well.

I have made a LOT of stuff from houses to furniture and to be honest, several hundred guns.  I use the Golden Mean a lot during the conceptual stage of planning what I'm making at the time.  I was taught to make a plan, a mechanical drawing or you can call it a blueprint before I purchase materials or make the first cut.  For instance I made myself a nice little roll top bread box.  Simple, no?  But where to start?  I took the length of a loaf of bread and proportioned it using the golden mean from that point.  The same with a dresser,  kitchen cabinets, or planning the size of a porch on an existing house. 

As for gun building there are many uses for the G.M. if you are not making a bench copy of a particular gun.  How long should the hand rail definition be going into the butt stock?  Start with a ratio of 1/3 or 3/5 and you have a starting point that will be pleasing to look at.  Length of the wrist vs. the toe of the comb?  Particularly the proportion of the fore stock vs. the fore arm on a short barreled (30" or less) gun?  Think in 5ths and you have a very good starting point.  Put it on paper and look at it and make adjustments as needed from there.  Since I sell kits - sometimes to bone ameteurs - when they call me stuck on something I often tell them to use the GM and things usually work out fine.