Author Topic: Santa Fe Hawkens  (Read 44097 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Santa Fe Hawkens
« on: June 02, 2012, 05:48:02 PM »
Hey smart guys, anybody have an idea what a Santa Fe "1 of 1000" Hawkens "that actually has production number stamped into the tang" is worth. This is the one that is actually .53 cal. This one was first prize at the Tall Trees Rendezvous, many years ago, and has hardly been fires.


                         Hungry Horse

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 10:01:11 PM »
One recently sold on Gunbroker for $600.  It took two weeks to sell at that price.  One in better condition might have sold sooner or may have attracted more bids and gone for a higher price.  You would have to put it up for auction to know for sure.
Phil Meek

Offline Habu

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2012, 04:25:18 AM »
The last one I saw before the one referenced by Mtn Meek went for about $650 and was NIB.  Most folks now don't seem aware of them.  Of the ones I've seen actually sell over the years, the presence or absence of the correct ball mould was often a significant consideration for the buyer. 

A couple of bidders dropped out at $600, they were aware it might take a while to get a mould.  I dropped out at $550; while I have a mould, based on the ones I'd seen sell over the past five years that was my maximum for the rifle in new condition.  A friend of mine got it. 

We shot it on the way home.  They are a pretty decent rifle, for a caplock. 

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 08:15:10 AM »
Actually molds are readily available and Hornaday still makes a .52 swaged ball for it.
In my opinion this rifle was a best buy for the money by a long shot. And if you have an eye for style, you could take a kit or finished gun and make it the equivalent of a custom gun. Not a Hawken Mtn. rifle but you could call it a Missouri rifle for the local trade.

Offline Habu

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 08:13:54 PM »
I don't know about "readily available"--my mould was a 30 day "special order" that took a few months to get delivered, then another month going back to get repaired.  On the used mould market, .530" and .535" moulds are fairly common, and even .526" aren't too hard to find, but .520" moulds are a bit unusual.  Last I checked, .520 round balls were not available in a 100 mile radius of here (and Hornady is only 80 miles away). 

So while moulds are available, and round balls can be ordered in, there is a perception that it may be difficult or take a while to get them.  As with all unusual or limited-demand ammunition, this does affect sales of rifles in those calibers. 

We see sort of the same thing with shotguns.  Probably half the guys I know that shoot ML shotguns are shooting originals.  There is a ready market for SxS doubles in good condition, but given two guns in equal condition, one in 12 gauge and one in 11 or 13 or 14 gauge, the 12 will sell first, and for about $75-100 more.  Not because it is actually more difficult to purchase or make components, but because people think they will have more trouble getting components. 

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 06:14:12 AM »
In the last 15 years, I've been a part of or witnessed more than 20 transactions involving the Santa Fe Hawkens - Jed Smith Commemorative edition. In my experience, the value of the Jed Smith version (# of 1000) can range from $350 to $600 depending on the condition of the rifle. I did witness a transaction where an NIB 'in the white' Jed Smith (#51) was sold for $750 - Western Arms sold a number of the Jed Smith commemorative rifles as kits in the late 70s.

In regards to the Santa Fe Hawken - Jed Smith rifle and its shootability - it is a very accurate and reliable rifle. It is widely desired as a competition shooter and a very accurate representation of the Hawken rifles that were carried by adventurers in the Rendezvous era. The Santa Fe Hawken is patterned after a rifle that was carried by Kit Carson - Kit Carson's rifle was donated to the Montezuma Lodge in Santa Fe, NM and can be viewed on request.

Concerning the molds - Dixie and Rapine can make custom molds in the .52 caliber. At one time, Lyman produced a .52 mold. I heard a rumor that Hornaday has stopped production of the .52 round ball.

Hungry Horse - what number of Jed Smith commemorative rifle do you have? 

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 07:09:10 AM »
.52 Hornady balls are in stock at Track as well as cast balls. I wouldn't be surprised, however , if Hornady ceased production.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 07:28:58 AM »
If I may submit a correction without offending anyone, the Santa Fe Hawken, and the other Uberti Hawkens is not a copy of the Kit Carson Hawken.  This statement is often heard and has become part of modern ML lore.  The same has been said of the Ithaca Hawken.  There are a number of differences between the Carson Hawken and these reproductions.  The breech plugs are different in size and shape.  The Carson Hawken has a 1-1/8" breech.  The repos have a 1" breech.  The locks and particularly the hammers are different.  The butt plates are different.  

The Ithaca Hawken is a good representation of a late Sam Hawken rifle, but it is not a copy of any specific original.  The Uberti Hawken (the Santa Fe Hawken is a limited edition of Uberti's model) is probably a copy of the Ithaca Hawken.  Ithaca bought the rights, existing parts, and tooling from Cherry Corners.  They then sold it to Navy Arms.  Navy Arms eventually farmed out the manufacturing of the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken to Uberti.  Pedersoli then copied Uberti for their Hawken.  There are slight differences between the USA made Ithaca Hawken and the Italian Hawkens, but they are similar enough to suggest the lineage.

There were efforts to get Uberti to manufacture an exact copy of a J&S Hawken that was once exhibited in the Montana Historical museum.  The effort was documented in Buckskin Report, but ultimately Uberti chose to build something different.  Their decision was likely based on the manufacturing challenges of making an exact copy of an original Hawken and/or wanted to go with something that already had wide acceptance in the market, namely the Ithaca Hawken.

Once again, the marketing department wins out over the engineering department.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 07:32:17 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 04:40:09 PM »
The Western Arms Hawkens was never advertised as a replica of a  Kit Carson Hawkens. It was advertised, and marked, as a replica of the Hawkens carried by Jed Smith on his last trip west. The original, and the Western Arms #1, resides in the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fe, and was used as the pattern for the replica. This is why it is .53 Cal. instead of .54. This one is #182 and came with two molds in .520, one is a Palmetto Armory (that I sold the original owner), the other is a Rapine, he bought for cheap at a shop closeout sale.
 The German silver cheek inlay Says "Tall Trees 4th annual rendezvous" this rendezvous is put on by the Jed Smith Mountain Men in Smith River California over the fourth of July, and runs about a week. I'm not sure but I think they are doing their 30 something annual this year. So this gun has seen a lot of closet time.

                             Hungry Horse

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 05:32:51 PM »
I think we have been on this old merry-go-round before.   This is how I have always understood it but then we are having to go back to Santa Fe in the 1970s. 

I have had one of the original Kit Carson copies commissioned by Allen Arms (Western Arms trade mark) from Uberti in Italy for 10 years or more.   In the 70s blue prints were made of the KC Sam Hawken rifle in the Santa Fe Masonic Lodge and sent to Italy for a limited manufacture of exact copies.   EXCEPT the calibre was to be .54 (no .52 molds).  The stamping on the barrel says .54 as intended but the barrels were bored and rifled as per the blue prints at .53.   That mistake is one of the identifiers of  this very first and unique run.  They also have the 'slant' breach, the fine half-dovetail locking the toe plate to the toe of the butt plate and german silver escutcheons and fore-end cap.    Anyone having one of these is very lucky indeed, as am I.   
  I have serial # 817.  They proved to be expensive for the market and too costly for Uberti to continue to make to the original Sam Hawken standard for the contracted price.   Still seeing a potential market, the Uberti son, who looked after the USA business, arranged another run of more cheaply produced rifles, good but not the exact copies of the first run, in calibre .54.   I have seen these referred to as Santa Fe rifles but whether it was the name used to market them, or not, I do not know.    But these are not up to the rifles produced in that first run.

As to molds, Jeff Tanner over here in the UK cuts molds to any size you want and ships to the USA.  He is well known on both sides of the pond for his excellent and speedy service and very reasonable prices.   Go to www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk/   Order by e-mail and it will be on your doorstep in no time. 

My rifle is just excellent.  One ragged hole everytime with 80gr  FFF powder, a .52 ball and a bed ticking patch lubed with Neats Foot Oil.    And a joy to shoot out to 200 yards.  Couldn't think of parting with it.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2012, 07:17:12 PM »
Obviously these rifles past is well beyond checkered, and way into plaid. The tang on mine is stamped One in One Thousand and number 182, but the barrel has the number 598 on it, and .54 cal., and is marked  Western Arms Santa Fe N.M. Jedediah Smith 1799-1831. Is this the first generation of this gun? 

                        Hungry Horse

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 10:28:59 AM »
Don't know if anyone has ever tried to document the information available in articles and books on the Jedediah Smith commemorative, the Santa Fe Hawken, and the regular Uberti Hawken.  I am going to look in my resources and see what I can find.

Someone out there must have examples of the Jed Smith rifle and the Santa Fe rifle that they can lay side by side and describe any differences they have.

So far, I've found an article in a 1981 Dixie Gun Works BLACK POWDER ANNUAL by Rick Hacker that describes it with pictures.  Later I'll post the section on the Jedediah Smith Commemorative for all to read.  A couple quotes are interesting.

"...the Jed Smith Commemorative, a special edition of the firm's regular production gun, the Santa Fe Hawken."

"...the heavy-duty .54 caliber barrel is actually choked down to .530 at the muzzle, a feature normally found on only a very few premium barrels and a tremendous aid to accuracy."  [The italics are the authors, not mine.]

Do any of you Jed Smith owners feel a choke when you run a patch through the barrel?  Interesting explanation for the need for a smaller ball in them.  Is it true?

Hacker claims he "took one of the very first rifles off the production line" the year before he wrote the article.  The annual is copyrighted in 1980.  That would make the first production date 1979, most likely.

Other information, Western Arms was started by Leonard Allen.  (Haven't found a start up date for the company yet.)  At some point, Olin, I believe, sued him or threaten him with a law suit over the trade mark of the company name.  They used it for a line of ammunition.  He changed the name of the company to Allen Firearms.  It went out of business in 1987.  Old-West Gun Co., now Cimarron F.A., purchased the remaining inventory of Allen Firearms.
Phil Meek

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 08:44:58 AM »
I've finally looked through my various books, magazines, and catalogs and found a number of references to the Santa Fe Hawken and the Jedediah Smith Commemorative rifles that document their development.

Since I have already given some quotes from this source, I thought I would start out with excerpts from Dixie Gun Works' BLACK POWDER ANNUAL – 1981 SHOOTERS EDITION, copyrighted 1980. The section on the Jed Smith Commemorative starts about midway down the first column.



Next is the earliest advertisement I could find for the Santa Fe Hawken and the Jedediah Smith Commemorative rifles from the May-Jun 1978 issue of Muzzleloader magazine.  This appears to be announcing both versions of the rifle as well as the commemorative pistol discussed else where in the BLACK POWDER ANNUAL article.



This ad was continued in every remaining issue of the magazine for the rest of the year and into 1979.  Considering the common practice in the firearms industry to start advertising prior to the availability of the actual firearms to create some pent-up demand, I suspect the issue date for both rifles was 1979.  The development of the rifle probably started much earlier such as 1977.

Allen Firearms, formerly Western Arms, went out of business in 1987, so that is likely the end of the run of the Commemorative rifle, though, Old-West Gun Co., now Cimarron F.A., may have continued to sell some of the rifles as they bought the remaining inventory of Allen Firearms.  Cimarron F.A. continued to market the Santa Fe Hawken for a number of years under their own name.  In fact, they still list it on their web page, but it is currently manufactured by Pedersoli.  I don't know when Uberti quit making the Santa Fe Hawken, but it may have been in 1994.  They re-issued it in the early 2000's, but apparently discontinued it again in recent years.  The run for the Jed Smith Commemorative may have reached the full 1000 rifles.  Here is a picture of SN #965 that sold at an auction in October 2011.



Next I found references to the Santa Fe Hawken by Western Arms offered in Track of the Wolf's Catalog #8, copyrighted 1981.  They sold the rifle as a kit.


TOTW continued to offer a fully assembled kit of the rifle in their Catalog #9.


Please note the enlarged section below that is probably the best source for the lineage of the Uberti Hawkens.


I have a version of the Santa Fe Hawken that's in-the-white, similar to the listing in the TOTW's Catalog #9 except the barrel is stamped with “CIMARRON ARMS – HOUSTON, TEXAS”.  I haven't tried to interchange the parts with an Ithaca Hawken I have, but the lock plate, butt plate, trigger bar, and German silver nosecap look identical and may well interchange.  I suspect that Navy Arms, who had bought the rights to the Ithaca Hawken about this time, had arranged for Uberti to copy the Ithaca Hawken and start manufacturing it for them, which they ultimately did.

I was aware that Western Arms and Uberti had been working to build an exact replica of a J&S Hawken rifle.  What I didn't realize until I did this literature search is that the J&S Hawken reproduction, sometimes referred to as the Baird-Webber version, was being developed by Uberti about the same time as the Santa Fe Hawken.  This is an excerpt from the November 1979 issue of BuckSkin Report describing this effort.





You will note that in the initial ad and announcement of the Santa Fe and Jed Smith Commemorative rifles that Leonard Allen alluded to “the first of many models, duplicating the variations of the Hawken brothers in fullstock, flintlock, different calibers and woods.  Each model will be submitted to acknowledged contemporary authorities for their inspection, testing and critical comments...”  I interpret this to mean that they were working on the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken and the Santa Fe Hawken at the same time and that Allen had plans to sell both of them.  Unfortunately, this was not to be.  I've read several opinions as to why the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken never went into full production.  I doubt that anyone living really knows.  

One factor that I haven't seen mentioned is the economic situation at the time.  The end of the 1970's and beginning of the 1980's saw double digit inflation.  The country suffered from recessions in 1973-75, again in 1980, and another one in 1981-82.  This roller coaster ride in the economy would have made it very challenging for Uberti and Western Arms to introduce another new rifle into the market and likely contributed to the decision not to go into full production of the J&S Hawken replica.

How did the stories get started that the Santa Fe and Jed Smith Commemorative Hawken rifles were exact copies of Kit Carson's last Hawken and Jedediah Smith's last Hawken?  The name “Santa Fe” may have been the source for the association with Kit Carson's last Hawken, since it was exhibited in the Masonic Lodge in Santa Fe and a lot of people were/are familiar with it.  The notion that the Commemorative rifle is an exact copy of Jed Smith's last Hawken may be more convoluted.

Hungry Horse in a post on Hawken Barrels (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20764.0) states that, “Jed Smith's [rifle] is in the Palace of the Governors, in Santa Fe.”  

There were, at one time, two Hawken rifles in the New Mexico State Museum housed in the old Governors Palace in Santa Fe.  J.W. “Doc” Carlson published an article in the May-Jun 1979 issue of Muzzleloader magazine describing these rifles.




It is interesting that Carlson didn't recognize the first rifle as an original fullstock Hawken that had been cut to halfstock on the frontier.  The Tennessee cheek piece, fixed patent breech, pewter nosecap, and wooden underrib are obvious giveaways.

Neither of these rifles are attributed to Jed Smith.  In fact, the second one is marked S. Hawken and the first one is likely a S. Hawken rifle, both of which would have been made well after Jed Smith's death.

Western Arms had one or more Uberti prototypes of the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken made.  These rifles could have been seen at rendezvous as part of Western Arms marketing effort.  It would have been easy for someone who had seen them or heard of them to associate them with one of the rifles in the Governors Palace.

Such is the nature of modern muzzleloading lore to elaborate the story in retelling it.  The documentation that I've found doesn't support the notion that the Santa Fe is an exact copy of the Carson Hawken, but I bet we will continue to see it posted on this and other forums for years to come.  As John Ford apply demonstrated, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”

How similar is Western Arms' Santa Fe Hawken to Kit Carson's last Hawken?  

The Santa Fe, like the Ithaca Hawken that preceded it, is representative of Sam Hawken's rifles made in the 1850's.  It has features similar to a number of Sam's rifles such as Plate No. 61 in Baird's first book, including the German silver nosecap.  The butt plate is like the ones shown in Plate Nos. 66, 69, and 74.  The lock resembles rifles from both the J&S and Sam periods.  The trigger guard scroll, on the other had, isn't right for any Sam Hawken rifle in that it has too much curl in the scroll.

The Kit Carson Hawken is the evolutionary peak of the late Sam Hawken rifle.  This is most obvious in the relationship and fit of the hammer to the fence of the tang and the snail on the breech plug.  The Hawken shop had started using cast butt plates, trigger guards, and nosecaps by the time that the Carson Hawken was built.  These cast parts defined certain lines of the rifle as they guided how the stock was shaped between the parts.  The use of these cast parts established a certain pattern with less of the variations that earlier rifles exhibited when each metal part was hand forged.  (See James Gordon's book for pictures of several rifles that used these cast parts and follow this specific pattern.)  Primarily because the Santa Fe Hawken doesn't use exact replicas of these cast parts, it doesn't follow the pattern.  Being of a different pattern, it can't be considered a copy of the Carson Hawken.  Had Uberti faithfully followed the blue prints marketed by Wayne Robidoux, drawn from a late Sam Hawken rifle that was built with these cast parts, it would have resulted in a rifle that more closely followed the Carson pattern.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 08:52:13 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Habu

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2012, 08:02:00 PM »
Very nicely done--thanks for your work in putting that together!

kermits

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 02:57:52 AM »
Hi from Santa Fe New Mexico.......Late getting here, but sure glad I did.....I too have a Jed Smith Santa Fe Hawken, 1 of 1000 # 287.  I got it from TOTW in 2009 for $759.  Nice to get a history lesson here on this rifle.  Just got the Jim Bridger Hawken Kit from TOTW in .54, 1 1/8 straight barrel, w/fancy maple stock..  This will be my winter project.  Thanks for all the info...........

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2012, 05:04:10 AM »
The Sante Fe Hawken is not much like the rifle Ed build, other than having similar parts. Like a barrel and a lock and a buttplate.... The Italians were not able to produce the rifle as a Hawken should have been shaped, as Ed's copy was. So after all the hype everyone involved or knew of the project who really thought that there would be a reproduction Hawken that actually LOOKED like a Hawken were disappointed. John Baird was very excited about this as we all were. But in the end the expectations were not realized.
The last time I talked to Ed about it, a year or so ago, he said "...the Italians could not make the gun".

Dan
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kermits

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 09:27:17 PM »
I haven't been to the Montezuma Masonic Lodge to view the Kit Carson gun, or to Jim Gordons Museum in Glorieta (which has a collection of origional Hawken Rifles) both places here in the Santa Fe area.  I want to look things over to help out on my build.  I would like to have a slight swell in the grip or butt on the stock.  I have several books (The Plains Rifle, Hawken Rifles and Fifty years in the Hawken Load by BAIRD, the Hawken Rifle by HUNTER, etc. but still wish to see one up front........Any ideas on the forarm or butt swell?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2012, 01:02:43 AM »
What would be the reason for such a swell, Hawken rifles are notoriously robust to begin with? Unless you are trying to replicate the original Hawken rifle with the pistol grip stock, shown in one of Wilson's books.
 Does your Santa Fe have a German silver cheek inlay? Mine does, and I wondered if it was original to the gun. TTYL.

                          Hungry Horse

kermits

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 01:22:21 AM »
In reply.....no German silver cheek inlay on my stock.  On the other (3) of these that I have handled, only one had an inlay, which was on the right side (opposite the cheek), some type of coin.  I like the looks of the stocks swell.  My TOTW Bridger kit sits waiting for the breech plug to be fitted to the barrel from TOTW.  It has been about two weeks, should have barrel here by mid week, I hope.

kermits

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 02:24:54 AM »
Hungry Horse

You got me looking.......I searched through my book collection and came up with Wilson's "The Peacemakers" and see photo on page 49 of the pistol grip Hawken.  To bad it's a small photo of the rifle laying flat on a table.  Do you know of any other reverence of pistol gripped Hawken's?

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2012, 03:18:45 AM »
Page 391 in Jim Gordons book of early western guns has several nice photos of a pistol griped S. Hawken gun.    Smylee

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 05:23:04 AM »
If someone will send me an E mail address to <wvgzr@webtv.net> I have several
fine pictures of an original pistol grip Hawken. I made a lock and triggers for a man
that is copying it.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 05:31:04 PM »
I haven't been to the Montezuma Masonic Lodge to view the Kit Carson gun, or to Jim Gordons Museum in Glorieta (which has a collection of origional Hawken Rifles) both places here in the Santa Fe area.  I want to look things over to help out on my build.  I would like to have a slight swell in the grip or butt on the stock.  I have several books (The Plains Rifle, Hawken Rifles and Fifty years in the Hawken Load by BAIRD, the Hawken Rifle by HUNTER, etc. but still wish to see one up front........Any ideas on the forarm or butt swell?

You should go look at the original rifles.
The inability to shape a stock correctly is what makes the Sante Fe "Hawken" a plains rifle and not a Hawken.
If you start screwing with the stock design the rifle is no longer a Hawken. Its like making a Bedford with a Siler lock and JP Beck furniture and carving then labeling it a JP Beck.
The PG Hawkens are obviously TARGET RIFLES they have provisions for a Schuetzen style peep sight. As a result they are non-typical, correct for what they are but still non-typical. The fact that they have a PG will result in changes in the buttstock shaping.
I would love to see a detailed description of the bores with rifling twists.
I suspect they were made for a specific rifle match/club or group of shooters but this is surely lost to time.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 01:01:29 AM »
I think that PG Hawken was made as a hunting rifle and the lollypop
sight added later. Are there any known specimens beyond this one?
This one is shown in Baird's book "Hawken Rifles,the Mountain Man's Choice"
as one of a group then owned by Jim Severn. Whatever it is/was,I like it and
would like to have one but that is a dream for me that I will never fulfill.
I can't make time to make a simple New York match rifle that sets neglected
in my shop.

Bob Roller

kermits

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Re: Santa Fe Hawkens
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 05:27:45 AM »
I'm not interested in making my Hawken a PG rifle.   Just would like to see what it looks like.    How do you attach photos here?