Linen or pillow ticking for patch material?

[bob in the woods]

My .45 target rifle likes a particular material [ I have about 3 yards left of what I bought 6 years ago ]
So far, I haven't found a duplicate, and the group opens up with anything else.  Not much, but enough to make a difference. On a calm day, that gun will shoot inside an inch at 50 yds, which translates into 50's
on the buffalo target. Even with the same thickness patch [ different weave ] the group opens and I'm shooting 49 or 48 etc. Again, that is a calm day, so the test is the gun/patch/ball combo
The ' good stuff ' is reserved for that gun only, and the search for more material continues.
I could start from scratch, and play around with powder charge, patch, ball combos, but it sure is a lot easier to have a large stock of the materials in the accuracy recipe .  When you find something that works- buy as much as you can !

[Daryl]

Light one corner of a patch with a lighter or match. If it emits black, oily smoke and stinks like synthetic, it is not cotton nor linen.  If you extinguish the flames and the charred spot is merely dusty carbon, the material has no synthetic - or a miniscule amount. If there is any melting of material, there is synthetic material in the patch.  It is highly unlikely that the army patches would be linen - Linen is expensive compared to cotton or synthetics - but - they might be cotton. Cotton is used by many for cleaning patches as it is normally soft, absorbant and collects dirt and fouling from bores very efficiently.

 

[twotimer]

i just tried the burn test that daryl suggested.it burned uniformly with a white smoke,and the charred edges disintegrated into fine ash,so i think i have an abundance of patching material.thanks again for the info.now its out to my range and start working on a load.i know it may take 2/3 days to see what it prefers to eat,but to my good fortune i found that my friend who passed left me more powder that i originally thought.i will post results latter in the week.thanks all.

[Herb]

I really like linen.  I got it at Joann's Fabrics, but there are various thicknesses.  I bought some off their web site, and they could not tell me the thickness.  Had to gamble, and it was thinner than I wanted but still worked well.  Here is a test I did with my Jacob Wigle .40 flintlock with various patching materials. The first target fired was the bottom right, then to the top left and around.  This rifle usually throws the first shot from a clean bore (44" 15/16" Rice barrel) faster than the rest.  Note that the thinner patches give higher velocity.  That funny looking rear sight is one I was making, I cut the top off to leave a half-hole for the rear notch.  Works great.

A closer look at the best target with the first shot fast.

A composite of all the shots and the patches I used.  The GI patch is cut from a 100 percent cotton Army fatigue shirt, the old Olive Drab one.

[Daryl]

Herb - I'd like to see 5 targets shot with this load. Note the extreme spread and extremely thin patch. It looks good in that target. How is it's consistancy?

[Herb]

Daryl, that was the only target I shot with this load.  This .012 linen was what I got off Joann's web site, they couldn't tell me how thick it was.  But it worked here.

(I just deleted my post and reposted this.  I'd downloaded some program to help print music and wound up with a new home page I couldn't get rid of. Badger (?) or some such.  It posted an ad in my entry here and if you clicked on the underlined word target, you got this pop up ad.  Sorry.  I managed to get back to Yahoo for my home page.  Will probably have to expurgate my computer to get rid of programs I don't want.  But I'll have to find some smart kid to help me do that).    There it is again!  DON'T click on that underlined word!  Anybody know how to get rid of whatever is doing this?

[zimmerstutzen]

Herb,   did you wipe between shots, lube etc.  How careful were you in measuring loads?  (some shooters just fill a measure and dump it in the bore, and from shot to shot, it could be level across the top one time and mounded up on top the next.  Some shooters, actually tap the side of the measure to settle the powder into the measure and make sure they only use a level measure each time.   Makes a difference)

Your results seem to support what I have felt all along, that a thick heavy patch isn't necessary.  The patch need only be just thick enough to seal the bore around the ball. 

Also, just out of curiosity, did you weigh the patches.    ie does the extra weight of the heavier patch play a factor.      If the ball is slightly deformed to smack in a ball wrapped in a heavier patch, does it have more air resistance and therefore go slower?

Or possibly does the heavier patch cause a wider ring around the bullet in contact with the bore and does that create more friction than a thinner patch?

BTW  Thank you for your post!

[Herb]

I put a patch dampened with my cleaning-lube solution (about one part Murphy Oil Soap to 3 parts 91% alcohol to 3 parts hydrogen peroxide) on the seating jag so I wiped the bore down to the ball seat each time I loaded.  Then cleaned the bore after each patch test (target).  Loading was done with an adjustable measure set at 55 grains, charges not checked by weight.  I measured very carefully, with no tapping.  I just checked the measure 11 times and the average weight was 54.66 grains with a spread of 2.4 grains.  I poured from the powder can using a straight-walled .30-06 case-body soldered onto the lid. I don't know why things happen as they do, I just test to see what happens.  Below is a powder comparison of Goex 3F and 2F  done with weight-calibrated measures.  Second target from left on bottom is same as one here.  Deleting the first bore-fouling shot velocity, the target above gave 1702 fps with 29 spread, (about 54.6 grains), but 55.0 (below) gave 1715/33.

[bgf]

In my admittedly limited experience, you can get good results with a loose ball/patch combination and light powder charge, but the material is critical and you can't push it too much or expect much past 50 yards.  I have developed just such a load for woodswalks (where the targets aren't usually that far away), and I shot with it on the range a few times, with surprisingly good results.  It isn't as good as the best ("tight") even at 50 yards, but I find it useful and fun to use in some applications.  I have long suspected that linen would be ideal for such a load, but I haven't run out of the first stuff I bought yet nor had time to play with linen.

[Herb]

I solved the problem in my post at the top of the page.  I had tried to again print out "Rondeau" sheet music by Jean Phillipe Moreau (the old Masterpiece Theater theme song, I'd just given my copy to a cute flute player to learn so we can duet) and wound up with "Powered by Text-Enhance" on my computer.  So I deleted all the programs installed on 6/15/12 and that cured the problem.

[Herb]

Here is another test comparing pillow ticking and linen.

[Herb]

Here are more tests I shot last fall getting ready for an elk hunt.  My .58 fullstock flint Hawken I built, at 100 yards.  Top left is 120 grains of Goex 2F with .570 ball and .019 pillow ticking.  Top right same but .019 linen.  Lower left, .562 ball and 140 grains of Goex 2F with .019 linen.  Lower right, .570 ball with the same load.    Wish I could have found an elk.... but no snow, so they didn't come out of the high country.

[Daryl]

It's quite interesting Herb, but your tests appear diametrically opposed to all of my bench and paper target testing.   

[Herb]

So what's different?

[Daryl]

When I shoot thick patches in my .45 and .40, I get 1/2" to 3/4" groups for 5 shots.  When I shoot loose (thin) patches in testing, I cannot keep them into 2". I was referring to the earlier tests you made with the .020" patches in your Wigle.


Sorry, I didn't notice the .58's groups were at 100yards- my error. Wind, light changes and the distance can cause the odd flier - sometimes one in every group.  You did well.  I'm thinking the right, top .58 group might have a 'low' shot due to the being wiped before making the shot, + 1 flier, but the left group shows the tightness of the right 3 shots might have been accidental, which is why 1 or 2 targets makes for poor statistics.  BTW- good shooting though as many guys have difficulty making groups that size at 50yards. Anyone who's scored a chunk shoot, knows this.

The 140gr. charges did give slightly better shot to shot variations and seemed to be more consistant, but more groups, of course, would be needed due to the range.  Your top right group is similar to what I get from my .58 Enfield - about 3".  Our rifle is capable of better than that, obviously.

[bgf]

For what little it is worth, I agree about the possibility of a first shot flyer on the cleaned barrel, although I don't think it is that far off for hunting and may be a good idea to know what you have going on and might not want to leave loaded on a fouled bore for too long.  I am impressed with the linen and have to find a reason to drive to Joann's soon !

[Daryl]

If the first shot is consistant, it can be allowed for, or sighted for initially as it is the most important shot, having the follow up shots landing a bit high.

This sort of clean shot then dirty shot testing is not done enough, imho.

[Herb]

Thanks, Daryl.  This barrel does shoot the first shot lower as you say, but with the same velocity as the rest.  The Wigle barrel throws the first shot a lot faster, the only barrel I have that does that, but still in the same group.