Linen or pillow ticking for patch material?

[Naphtali]

I have been informed that linen patch material yield a better result than pillow ticking of the same thickness - because of its superior tear resistance? I have used only lubed unpatched bullets (SPG; 30:1) in my black powder rifles (one muzzleloader, one Shiloh Sharps 1863). Now I want to try patch round balls, but I have no patches or patch material.

Where can I obtain small quantities (20 pieces, or so) of precut .010- or .015-inch dry patches, linen and/or pillow ticking? Patches wanted are to be satisfactory for .715-inch round balls cast from Lyman's mold.

[SCLoyalist]

I don't know about pre-cuts, but you can go down to a fabric shop like JoAnn's and buy natural linen and pillow ticking.  They'll sell you 1/4 yard (i.e. 9 inches by 32 or 36 inches) for a buck or two.   Take your scissors to the cloth and you're in business.  


For a .715 roundball, cut your patches about 1.85" square.  (If the square corners bother you, give them a little clip with your scissors and turn the square patches into octagons.)

Pillow ticking and linen both come in several different thicknesses, so some measurement and experimentation (and note taking to document results) will be called for.    Good luck.

P.S. the above applies to patched roundball in your muzzleloader, not the Sharps you mentioned.

[FRJ]

I second the JoAnnes thing. Take a caliper with you and also make sure that what your buying is 100% cotton. The pillow ticking works great for me. FRJ

[Daryl]

Ditto both posts. Spot-on.

I once bought some 6 ounce denim - it mic's .012" & I had to throw out all 3 yards as it wound't even make a decent shop rag. A rifles patches need to be thicker than that just to hold enough lube to do their job- then thicker again, just to seal and prevent fouling buildup.

What bore size are you shooting .715's in? Is that for a Kodiak?  I'd personally use 8 ounce denim in that gun, with that ball - 8 ounce mic's right at .020" for me.  The Kodiak's fairly shallow rifling will work with this weight of cloth and that ball. 

[hanshi]

A question, Daryl; you say 8 oz denim measures .020" as bought at the cloth shop.  What weight denim is blue jean denim?  I have some old jeans and have cut some patches from them and I'm wondering what I should look for at Joanns'.  My Rice bound groove barrel really needs something thicker than ticking.

[ehoff]

The best thing to do is get some of both and experiment. I use split wetted ticking for my target rifle, but I tried denim and other patching too. I get the best groups with ticking. I know Roger's chuck gun prefers linen patching. Its like ball diameter and powder charges you have to see what she likes and doesn't like.

[Hungry Horse]

Ask for mattress ticking. It is about 23-25 thousandths before washing. The big problem is most of it is made overseas now, and is no longer all cotton. I recently bought some material that is cotton, and linen, that is quite good, not as tight as twill, or ticking, but pretty good.

                       Hungry Horse

[Roger Fisher]

The best thing to do is get some of both and experiment. I use split wetted ticking for my target rifle, but I tried denim and other patching too. I get the best groups with ticking. I know Roger's chuck gun prefers linen patching. Its like ball diameter and powder charges you have to see what she likes and doesn't like.

Well the linen was like "a uesta was!!  Turns out the (pardon my language) Teflon shoots tighter groups than anything else (now). At 60 yds she wants .020 teflon 85 2 f goex and a .465 ball in her 47 cal. bore.

Had much trouble finding linen with a tight enough Weave.

[zimmerstutzen]

IMHO patch material needs to have a few necessary attributes.  It needs to be tough enough not to tear, needs to have sufficient weave to impress itself into the ball and grip the ball, and it needs to be thick enough to fill the spaces in the grooves and seal the pressure behind the ball.   

the optimum patch material depends a bit on the type of rifling.  Very deep narrow grooves need a thick nap material like a heavy flannel to fill the corners of the rifling.  Thin patching can be used guns with wide rounded corner grooves similar to Pope Rifling.  (Pope rifling has shallow grooves with humps running down the center.)   

Once the combination is tight enough to seal the bore, any tighter merely provides bruised palms when starting the ball. 

Some guys feel it is necessary to really wail on the PRB to get it started.  Use a mallet sometimes.  I think that is foolish.  Once the ball  and cloth is started into the bore, it is pretty much no tighter down in the bore than a slightly thinner patch would produce, and banging on a tight patch ball combo to start it can deform the ball and counter other attempts at accuracy. 

In one of my guns, I use heavy cotton flannel patches.  In another I use plain commercial drill or denim patches.  In another I use thin muslin patches. 

The standard wisdom is to use a certain thickness pillow ticking.  And for many rifles that may be just fine.  But if you have a gun with rifling that is "different", you just may need different patching. 

I personally think for many guns, too much emphasis is placed on thick patching and too little  on consistent loading techniques.

by the way,  real linen canvas as well as cotton canvas is available on-line  from Utrecht Art Supplies   The linen canvas I examined at their store was good heavy tight weave material.

[whitebear]

  I have some old jeans and have cut some patches from them and I'm wondering what I should look for at Joanns'. 

The problem with using worn out blue jeans is that the worn spots will be thinner than less worn spots and will change thickness. 

[zimmerstutzen]

Blue denim, both yardage goods and in clothing come in many weights and thicknesses
Normally sold by "weght".  I have seen everything from 6 oz to 20 oz.
At one time denim jeans were usually 12 or 14 oz, with a few heavy duty even heavier now most are 8 or 10 oz..

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I'm beginning to think about any natural fiber patch will work just fine as long as the titeness is consistant. After watching Herschel House loading a rifle in his video, with what looks like a piece of tube sock............

[Hungry Horse]

 I built a .50 cal. N.C. flint poor boy with a 38" Montana barrel on it. It is 1 in 72" twist, cut riflings, about 12 thousandths  deep. This gun never shot to its potential with all the regular patch ball combinations. At a club event that was designed to introduce the public to a wide array of shooting disciplines, I ran out of patch material for this rifle. Somebody had some very thin pre-cut patches, and offered them to me. I thought "this will never work" boy was I wrong. With a .490 ball and 15 thousandths ticking the gun shot poorly, and the patches were not just burned through, but shredded to the point that spent patches were nearly impossible to find. The 10 thousandths patches nearly fell down the barrel wrapped around the ball. No need for a short starter here. I was shocked when the gun shot like a champ, and the patches were in good enough shape to reuse. I would have never thought such a loose arrangement would work, and probably would have never tried it, had I not run out of patching. Have any of you had similar experiences? This is the first barrel slower than 1 in 66" I have used, and boy oh boy has it been a learning curve. This barrel doesn't shoot well with light charges either. It likes 90 grins. of 3F, and doesn't seem to lose its accuracy when I wind it up to 110 grins.

                                 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Good note, Micah.  The denim here runs 6 ounce to 12 ounce. The 12ounce is what I use in the 14 bore rifle - measures .025" with the michrometer, and just over .030" with heavily squeezed calipers (between finger and thumb).  The 10 works in all the rest of my guns, and runs .0225" for me, heavily squeezing the tines of the calipers between my finger and thumb.

We have found a blue, red and white mattress ticking, called railroad mattress ticking, that measures .023", is very soft after washing and loads easier than the denim, althogh another .0005" thicker.  A number of us are now using this wonderful ticking as it works in about every rifle with a ball .005" smaller than the bore, ie: .395" (to .398" in mine) .445", .495", .535", .575". I haven't tried it yet int he 14 bore, but suspect it will probably work OK with the .684" ball.

[twotimer]

i have an abundance of old military cleaning patch's,likely from the viet-nam era,they are grey,measure 2.5" x 2.5" square.they are a very tight weave,and measure .015 thick.i have been cutting them into 4 equal squares measuring an inch and a quarter,and shooting them in my .50 pedersoli with a .495 ball with excellent results at 100 yrds.i think i will try them in my .50 cal with the w.m.large barrel with fffg today.does anyone know what material these patches are,they look and feel almost like nylon to me.

[Daryl]

You should be using pure cotton, or linen. Synthetics can melt from the BP flame temperature and adhere to the bore of your rifle, just as plastic shotshell wads can.

Picking up fired patches and examining them goes part and pacel with developing a load. If they have holes or are burnt, they are not useable.  At times, holes can be caused when loading due to too-sharp a crown on the muzzle. The thread about 'load data' has a picture of a nicely smoothed crown that does not cut patches and makes loading tight combinations easy.

[twotimer]

daryl,thanks again from stopping me from possibly messing up.i had used these patches spoken about only with pyrodex.i always examined them periodically and they were always burned uniformly.i have some pure cotton cleaning patch's that are .015.i shall try them.i remember jame's used a multi-colored material that looked to be about 1" wide,and he had numerous strips of it about 8 to 10 feet long he kept in a small duffel.he just placed it over the muzzol placed his ball in the center and cut it leaving equal amounts on each side.lord,forgive me for not asking him more questions about his methods of black powder shooting.

[Daryl]

Cutting patches at the muzzle has been done by almost everyone at one time or another. Some feel it's the only way to guarantee perfect patch alignment and that happens automatically when using this method.  When using an oil for lubing a strip of cloth, much is wasted which is why I don't cut at the muzzle, except for when using spit - when I run out of pre-cuts.  Although some people cut at the muzzle because it is a more consistant and accurate  method, a weak ball and patch combinations (too thin or too small a ball) eliminates any advantage gained.

 

[George Sutton]

I use pure linen, cut at the muzzle. I buy it at Joanne's Fabric. This is what it looks like. It measures .015. I use it for everything. I only use spit for lube unless I'm hunting. If you use it in strips or pre-cut round patches from the strips, the waste is the same.



Centershot

[jamesthomas]

 My Joanns has or had some blue stripe ticking that is measuring .24 with my calipers, it works great in my .50 cal. GM barrel with a .490 rb fills the groves up a reduces time to clean. I would get a sampling of each and try them out. It may take awhile at the range but thats the fun of muzzleloader shooting.

[Daryl]

I use pure linen, cut at the muzzle. I buy it at Joanne's Fabric. This is what it looks like. It measures .015. I use it for everything. I only use spit for lube unless I'm hunting. If you use it in strips or pre-cut round patches from the strips, the waste is the same.



Centershot

The cloth waste is probably a bit higher or can be with pre-cuts. I was referring to wasted lube (store bought oil) when lubing an entire strip.

Lube for hunting here, means it must remain soft in freezing temps. Mink oil and Neetsfoot work well, however anything with BeesWax in it, goes hard and is useless.

The large bores, say .58's and above, can get away with paper ctgs. for second + shots when hunting.  The smaller bores, producing higher pressures are not suitable for paper ctgs. I have heard a .54 Kodiak worked well with paper ctgs. and .535" balls. In my onw .69, I use 2 wraps of printing paper and a .684" WW ball. They shoot to the sights and same group size at 100 meters as a properly patched ball- ie: into between 1" and 1 1/2" for 5 shots. That is better accuracy than what many modern rifles will produce when using a scope. Dphar's 16 bore does similarly with paper ctgs.

[George Sutton]

The cloth waste is probably a bit higher or can be with pre-cuts. I was referring to wasted lube (store bought oil) when lubing an entire strip. Daryl


You're probably right Daryl. I can imagine what a lubed strip would look like if you dropped it in the dirt.

I use spit only except when hunting then I lube pre-cut patches.

Centershot

[Habu]

If your luck is like mine, when you find some fabric that works for you, go back and buy the bolt!  It never fails that "the good stuff" will be out of stock when I need it, and changed when they get it back in stock. 

[Daryl]

If your luck is like mine, when you find some fabric that works for you, go back and buy the bolt!  It never fails that "the good stuff" will be out of stock when I need it, and changed when they get it back in stock.  

Truer words never spoken.  
Taylor and I ordered a full bolt of the Railroad mattress ticking that measures .025" to .026" with calipers and .023" with my mic. Last time I was there, the store owner said she has been unable to find it again as her suppliers stopped bringing it in.

[twotimer]

i have an abundance of rifle cleaning patchs for military rifles that are grey and have a weave like the one posted in the picture by centershot,can any-one tell me if they are linen,or some other material.i have used them for patch material for my modern .50 pedersoli percussion,and they burn even and do an excellent job in it,but i am switching to 3f in a different rifle.i guess i could try them and see how they perform,but i,m new to the real black powder shooting and need a lot of help.i am going to order some books and read up on some of this,but so far you guys have been a wealth of info,and i truly appreciate all the help i receive.