load info

[twotimer]

a good friend passed a month ago today and passed me one of his black powder rifles and some 2f and 3f powder.its a 50cal.with a w.m large match barrel,wide groves,narrow lands.this rifle has not been shot since 79,and was not shot much back then.its been well kept,in excellent shape.i have never used the ffg,or fffg powder.what would be a good starting load with the 3f,or should i use the 2f,i have will be using a .495 ball,linen patch.any help would be greatly appreciated. ps.i'm a newbie here,but hope to be around a while.thanks.

[Don Tripp]

Is it a flintlock? He might have used the 3 F as priming powder although I have used 3 F in a .50.

60 Gr. of the 2 F is good place to start though if you are absolutely sure that the gun is sound.

Is it a custom gun or production?

[twotimer]

don,its a percussion,and a custom job,he built six back in the 70s,all with w.m.large barrels,a couple of .45 hawkens style,2 .36 cal.long rifles,this .50 i have,it has a 31.5" barrel,and he also built a .54 cal.i have shot a lot of pyrodex,but no ffg.

[twotimer]

p.s.the rifle is solid.i have about 12 cans of the 3f as opossed to 3 cans of 2f.

[Hungry Horse]

As I recently learned on this board, from Bob Roller,  the barrels made by Bill Large in that rifling configuration, are called Pope style rifling. The one I had the pleasure of shooting was superior to anything that shot against it in my neck of the woods. Congratulations, on such a nice acquisition. Sorry you had to lose a friend to get it.

                      Hungry Horse

[Don Tripp]

I should have re-read your post as the Wm Large Barrel was the key bit that I missed. I was being very conservative with my suggestion. I have a flintlock .50 cal Isaac Haines kit that I built and I have always used FFFG from day one to charge it and prime it. Mine is a Colerain barrel and my most accurate load is 65 grains. I know FFg is recommended for over .45 cal but I used to shoot a .36 quite often so I always seemed to have FFFG on hand. Just be conservative. If the hammer jumps back up to the half cock position after firing, then you are overloading it. I've never seen the need for super heavy loads though. There's no dangerous game around here.

[BrownBear]

I have an assortment of 50 cals, but sadly none with a Large barrel, so this is a wee bit of a shot in the dark.  But who can resist taking a shot in any case? 

In my experience the most important variable to sort first is the patch thickness relative to ball and bore diameters.  Linen is a dandy patch material when the right thickness, but it comes in a wide range of thicknesses. After sorting that out, then choice of powder and charge will come more into play.

It might be fact or a nod to convenience, but the standard "hunting" load in all my 50's has worked out to be 80 grains of 3f.  Some of them shoot the same volume of 2f just as well, but it's convenient to have one measure and one horn for my 50 cals, whether flint or percussion.

If you're shooting targets you'll likely shoot test loads a lot and refine your load to the nearest grain or two in search of the last fraction inch of accuracy.  Cool.  But for a starting load to get there I'd try a succession of charges starting with 50 grains of 3f and work up in 5 grain jumps till your heart starts to flutter with shrinking groups.  Then do it again with 2f.  Somewhere in there you'll hit a sweet spot to refine for targets, or stop for simplicity.  With such a fine barrel, this non-competing hunter would still be inclined simply to see how small a group it will shoot with serious load tuning.

[Daryl]

I had a Bill Large .58 - would not shoot accurately with anything but what most people would consider to be heavy charges & it excelled when fed correctly.

2F or 3F - you'll have to work up a load with either powder.  If you only want to shoot at pellet gun ranges (25 yards), then shoot any load you want, ie: 50gr. 

If you want to shoot accurately at 50 to 200yards, you'll need to work up a load, starting with a substancial patch and ball that is only .005" or .010"(at the smallest) smaller than the bore.  You'll need to learn to load it using a short starter.  I'd start at a minimum of about 85gr. of 3f and 100gr. of 2F and go from there in 5 gr. inciments until I found a load that shot well enough at 50yards, then test that at 100 or further. 

Even my .45 demands 75gr. of 3F or 85gr. of 2F for accuracy shooting when using an oiled patch. Anything less is innacurate, however, at 25 yards any load will stack the balls on top of the other off a rest - with every one of my rifles and my smoothbore too.

I suggest you borrow Lyman's BP handbooks along with Ned Robert's "The Muzzleloading CapLockRifle" and study them. They will help you a lot. Lyman's books will teach you about using a patch that goes beyond the bottom of the grooves when wrapped around a ball, ie; ball diameter + 2 thicknesses of patch, equals LARGER by a few thousandths over the groove to groove measurment. If it does not, it will not shoot cleanly and you'll have to wipe it out often. This results in a changing bore condition shot to shot, which is detrimental to accuracy due to the inconsistancy of the friction inside the bore.

This picture is from Lyman's excellent book. It shows how the patch should compress into the ball by not only the lands, but the grooves as well, in order to seal, give the best accuracy and shoot cleanly.
A water based lube will shoot well for target, with less powder than an oil-based lube. Good accuracy testing will show this.


Smoothing the crown (emery cloth, or wet and dry paper with tapered V dowel or your thumb) will ease the starting of the patch and ball combination.

[twotimer]

gentlemen,i truly appreciate all the advice,info.i am no novice to black powder shooting,except as stated i have never used the real black powder,ie,2f-3f-4f.i got back into black powder shooting about 14 years ago shooting a in line Thompson .50 cal that my wife got me.that's how i met my friend James who passed this fine rifle on to me.the in line was not for me as i am traditional all the way,build my own archery equipment ect.i have been shooting a pedersoli .50 cal with a 39" barrel that shoots round balls better than anything i have shot against except the .45 cal,my friend always shot.James shot in many black powder matches on the east coast for years,and competed at camp perry also.back to my new addition to my black powder rifles and pistols.the pedersoli likes 65 grains of pyrodex with the round ball at 100 yards,and i use .010 linen patch.my friend James used an over sized ball in his .45 and swag ed them but ia am comfortable using the .495 ball and the .010 patch for the moment.main question at the moment,what would be minimum and the maximin load with the 3f powder,as i have about 13 pounds of it.

[twotimer]

daryl,thanks for the info,i know now why james always chewed his patches.i have always used pre-lubed patches and bore butter,ect.along with the rifle and powder i also acquired all his cleaning and lube solutions.i must read up on them,as some of the bottles are at least 40/50 years old.he always bought in bulk.thanks again gentlemen for all the help,i hope not to be to much of a pest,but i am passing on my bench rifles to my son,and going to black powder only for a while.i have not hunted with anything but a longbow for about 15 years now,but i might as well get in on the muzzleloader season also.

[Daryl]

Water is all that is needed for cleaning BP fouling as it has none of the tricholorates (corrosives) that the phony powders have - no solutions needed nor desired.

Bore butter has a propensity for building up in the corners of the rifling grooves and ruining accuracy after a number of rounds. I would throw it out or give it to an enemy.

You will run into burnt out .010" patches long before you reach an accurate load, with either 2F or 3F.  However - much depends on what you call accuracy, I guess. a .50 should easily keep them inside 2" at 100yards off a rest - if no wind.

[Daryl]

Note - with a .010" patch in a .016" deep rifled Rice barrel, in order to achieve the above second picture's imprint on the ball, you would have to be loading at least a .515" diameter ball in the .500" bore. That .515" ball would only be providing about .015 compression in the bottom of the grooves.

For a test some time ago, in Taylor's Rice .50, we easily loaded a pure lead .508" ball, with an .018" drill patch.  That combination provided for .006" compression at the bottom of each groove against the ball and .022" compression into the ball from the top of each land.  That is why narrow lands are quite nice to have. It allows a good tight fit with easy loading.

Even with that same oversized ball we'd used in Taylor's rifle barrel, ie: .508", there would be a .002" airspace  between the patched ball and the bottom of each land if a .010" patch was used. That airspace allows blowby, ie: gas cutting, which robs the patch of lube and burns the patch and ruins accuracy. I've tested too-thin combinations when shooting on target and know what sort of accuracy destruction they do.

[twotimer]

daryl.thanks for the info.i will follow your advice.this rifle is almost in the white,as james only shot it about 100 times.my barrel dia.is .500 +/- .002,and my grove dia.is .530 +/- .003. i hope to spend the day tomorrow getting aquainted with a new toy,once i find some thicker patching material.thanks again for helping a newbie.

[Don Tripp]

Bore butter has a propensity for building up in the corners of the rifling grooves and ruining accuracy after a number of rounds. I would throw it out or give it to an enemy.

Daryl, do you have any experience with Wonder Lube 1000? I like the patches that are pre-lubed with this but I shoot light loads compared  to what you listed. with my eyes 50-75 yards is as far as I want to shoot. Just curious what your opinion is on the Wonder Lube. I bought a tub of bore butter when it first came out and I didn't like it either because of the build up (I had a gun with square bottom rifling) that was hard to clean out.

[Daryl]

Taylor had a tub of wonderlube many years ago. We tried it briefly and switched to bear oil, mink oil (Track) and Neetsfoot oil (hardware store). He use the rest of the wonderlube making bullet lube by mixing with beeswax and that didn't work well.

A fellow from this site, Round Ball, uses pre-cuts with store bought patches lubed with 1000. Says he likes it a lot. I bought some pre-cuts, OxYoke, from Track a number of years ago, lubed, but smelled like bore butter (wintegreen) and were yellow. They were listed as .018", measured only .014" so I threw them in the garbage.

[twotimer]

well,i tried a few loads in my,.50 cal,with w.m.large barrel.used a .495 ball and .010 spit lubed patch.started out with 70 grn.ffg.at 25 yrds.shot a 3 oclock x,standing offhand.went up to 85 grns.then to a 100 grns.at 100 grns ffg the groups realy tightned up but my patchs had 4 holes burned in them in a square.i ordered som 8 oz.and 10 oz. denim from fabric.com,and when it comes in i shall work on it again.i like shooting this ffg powder,and cleaning up with water only.whats happening with the burned patchs? to hot a load or???

[Roger Fisher]

well,i tried a few loads in my,.50 cal,with w.m.large barrel.used a .495 ball and .010 spit lubed patch.started out with 70 grn.ffg.at 25 yrds.shot a 3 oclock x,standing offhand.went up to 85 grns.then to a 100 grns.at 100 grns ffg the groups realy tightned up but my patchs had 4 holes burned in them in a square.i ordered som 8 oz.and 10 oz. denim from fabric.com,and when it comes in i shall work on it again.i like shooting this ffg powder,and cleaning up with water only.whats happening with the burned patchs? to hot a load or???

I do believe your using too thin a patch and you will find a thicker patch (of tightly woven  cotton will hold up to your satisfaction...

[Hungry Horse]

 Twotimer;

  I dug into the archives, and found that the Wm. Large barreled gun we were shooting was .54 cal., and we were using a .530 ball, and 15 thousandths pocket drill. I would try some .490 balls, and some pocket drill, or pillow ticking of similar thickness. About 60 grins. of 3F is what I shot in my old 50 cal. Mt. rifle with good results. Good luck.

                         Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

It is posible you are cutting the patches when loading, in which case the crown needs help - see page one of this thread.  Also, I most heartedly agree with Roger about patch thickness.
Thin patches can work well, with larger ball to bore ratio, and shallower, buttoned rifling which you don't have.

[twotimer]

roger,hungry horse,daryl,i thank you all for the input.i am sure my patchs are to thin for this barel.it has an extremly smooth crown,and i am a stickler for centering my ball on the patch and starting it with the short starter.i have some .490 rbs.and will try them also when my denim comes in.i ordered some 8 oz,for the .495s,and some 10 oz. for the .490s.ordered from fabric.com yesterday,shiped today,so i will have to wait untill the first of the week to experminent more.this old man is having fun again.and again,many thanks for all the help.

[twotimer]

btw,what is pocket drill?.i might be dumb,but at least i'm not to bashfull to ask.lol

[Daryl]

Sounds better, 2-timer - thought you shold know, we use 10ounce with .495's in a .50, .395's or .398's in a .398" bore and .535's in a .540".

The 8 ounce material, at what I measured at .014 or .015" was too thin for anything but shop rags - all 3 meters of it that I purchased.

[twotimer]

thanks daryl.i ordered a yard of each to start.i can use the 8 oz.in the .50 pedersoli,it likes a .490 rb and .015 patch and 68 grns.of paradex at a hundred,altho i think i will retire it for a while.

[Daryl]

 Pyrodex produces corrosive fouling. BP fouling, with the addition of moisture, produces a fouling that causes rusting, ie: oxidation of the iron and steel. Rusting is not the same as corrosion.  The corrosive fouling produced by Pyrodex actually disolves the iron molecules in the steel. This is due to the chlorates/perchlorates in the powder.

[twotimer]

what do you guys use as a lubricant for your muzzel loaders after a shooting session or for storage of say 2/3 months,if useing ffg/fffg powder???.