Turn out yesterday at your club/clubs??

[Habu]

I've been hearing rumors about this poor soul who "got his head blown off" 5 or 10 or 15 years ago since 1992 or '93; no doubt someone will soon post the tale about some guy who supposedly had unburnt powder in his barrel after shooting, and that powder ignited when he blew down the bore.  Seems if these events actually happened, someone might be able to document it--but that hasn't happened.   Blowing down the barrel of a loaded gun is clearly wrong--no one argues that point.  Blowing down the barrel of a just-fired gun is a different matter, and anyone who can't clearly see the difference probably shouldn't be allowed around firearms.

Having conducted experiments comparing (blowing down the barrel) vs. (not blowing down the barrel), I question characterizing the practice as "wrong."  I've never seen powder ignite during loading in a barrel that was blown clear of smoke immediately after firing; I have seen it happen (had it happen to me, too) when this wasn't done.  If the motivation for the rule is actually safety, it seems that there would be rules requiring a significant delay after firing a shot before loading (relays are certainly long enough), or that barrels be swabbed between shots.  As that hasn't been done, the only justification I can see is that the practice made some lawyer or insurance company uncomfortable, or that some fool might misunderstand what is being done.

Use of a blowtube (as discussed in the NMLRA rules) is a bit problematic.  I've done it, and been ordered to leave the line and had my targets and scores thrown out despite showing where it is specifically allowed by the published rules, and that it was discussed with/allowed by the previous-day's RO.  If you want to have rules (and I'm not arguing against the need for rules and safety procedures), they need to be consistently applied and enforced--and that is a problem. 

When some rules are enforced differentially for different shooters, while other rules are ignored, it makes it difficult to know what to expect at a shoot.  Why would any sane person travel to a match not knowing how the posted rules will be (or will not be) applied?  And as Mr. Thomas wrote, how the rules are enforced makes a great difference in how shooters perceive the actions of the RO.  Telling me I made a mistake, what the mistake was, and not to do it again or asking me to leave the line is one thing; grabbing my rifle while screaming at me is another.

[Bob Roller]

While I have never blown down a barrel that was just fired,I have blown across the muzzle and created a vacuum that will haul the smoke out easily. I once saw a man blow down the barrel of a percussion rifle that had just misfired and I saw another idiot turn an M1 Garand around and look up the barrel after the cartridge failed to fire. That was at Ft.Meade,Md in 1962.The descendants of these two idiots are out there somewhere.

Bob Roller

[Roger Fisher]

I've been hearing rumors about this poor soul who "got his head blown off" 5 or 10 or 15 years ago since 1992 or '93; no doubt someone will soon post the tale about some guy who supposedly had unburnt powder in his barrel after shooting, and that powder ignited when he blew down the bore.  Seems if these events actually happened, someone might be able to document it--but that hasn't happened.   Blowing down the barrel of a loaded gun is clearly wrong--no one argues that point.  Blowing down the barrel of a just-fired gun is a different matter, and anyone who can't clearly see the difference probably shouldn't be allowed around firearms.

Having conducted experiments comparing (blowing down the barrel) vs. (not blowing down the barrel), I question characterizing the practice as "wrong."  I've never seen powder ignite during loading in a barrel that was blown clear of smoke immediately after firing; I have seen it happen (had it happen to me, too) when this wasn't done.  If the motivation for the rule is actually safety, it seems that there would be rules requiring a significant delay after firing a shot before loading (relays are certainly long enough), or that barrels be swabbed between shots.  As that hasn't been done, the only justification I can see is that the practice made some lawyer or insurance company uncomfortable, or that some fool might misunderstand what is being done.

Use of a blowtube (as discussed in the NMLRA rules) is a bit problematic.  I've done it, and been ordered to leave the line and had my targets and scores thrown out despite showing where it is specifically allowed by the published rules, and that it was discussed with/allowed by the previous-day's RO.  If you want to have rules (and I'm not arguing against the need for rules and safety procedures), they need to be consistently applied and enforced--and that is a problem. 

When some rules are enforced differentially for different shooters, while other rules are ignored, it makes it difficult to know what to expect at a shoot.  Why would any sane person travel to a match not knowing how the posted rules will be (or will not be) applied?  And as Mr. Thomas wrote, how the rules are enforced makes a great difference in how shooters perceive the actions of the RO.  Telling me I made a mistake, what the mistake was, and not to do it again or asking me to leave the line is one thing; grabbing my rifle while screaming at me is another.

Ok Hab... please read items 1 & 2 of my post again.  The newbies learn from the older experienced shooters and they may get the idea that blowing down the muzzle is the thing to do and being exciteable may very well blow down the muzzle of a 'hot' rifle with horrible results & that is the point here...

[Roger Fisher]

While I have never blown down a barrel that was just fired,I have blown across the muzzle and created a vacuum that will haul the smoke out easily. I once saw a man blow down the barrel of a percussion rifle that had just misfired and I saw another idiot turn an M1 Garand around and look up the barrel after the cartridge failed to fire. That was at Ft.Meade,Md in 1962.The descendants of these two idiots are out there somewhere.

Bob Roller

Thanks Bob!

[Luke MacGillie]

With all due respect to the gentlemen who have in their minds that blowing down the muzzle is ok.  Even a just fired muzzleloader, I will keep it civil and short.

1- I witnessed 2 misfires where the shooter then blew down the barrel LUCKY very lucky...15 or so yrs ago in  a southern state a lady shooter on the line had a flash in the pan then handed the rifle to hubby.  He blew down the barrel rifle fired killed the poor man.  Have you ever seen a shooter get so befuddled and excited that he or she really screwed up.. I did and so have you.

2- New shooters learn from  the experienced shooters good or bad and if they see the experienced folks blow down the muzzle they think that is okay.  Wrong.

3- Negligence is like garbage it attracts more...  The folks that take on the task of running shoots safely stick their necks out for us all and if an accident happens and they allowed unsafe actions to occur shoot after shoot and do nothing the trial lawyers will eat them up.

4- If you must blow down that barrel use a blow tube...

5- I post this info with all due respect to all the shooters out there and hope they can see the logic. and why we should not blow down that muzzle..  And yes we do shut the line down at 1st Frontier ML club and read the riot act to all the shooters including not to blow down the muzzle.  

6- I know of more than 1 club that was so lax on safety more than a couple shooters decided never to go there again...

Ive pointed my weapon at people that I never intended to kill, even shot at them, blanks, lasers, paintballs.  Does that make me an unsafe shooter since I violated one of the Commandments?

[Habu]

Ok Hab... please read items 1 & 2 of my post again.  The newbies learn from the older experienced shooters and they may get the idea that blowing down the muzzle is the thing to do and being exciteable may very well blow down the muzzle of a 'hot' rifle with horrible results & that is the point here...

Roger, I read them.  I don't agree with the rule, but accept that if I want to shoot in matches I need to follow it.  My experience has been that like all safety rules these days, it is inconsistently enforced, and that even following the rule may not be acceptable.  Honestly, I think inconsistent application and enforcement of the other safety rules is a bigger concern, and I worry more about what newbies might learn from what is often allowed and accepted despite violating rules. 

I won't say safety rules are the only factor I consider when deciding to go to a shoot or not, but it is a factor.  It would increase in importance if I was considering taking a new shooter to a match with me.  It is my impression that more attention was paid to safety rules by shooters and ROs in the past.

[Jim Thomas]

Sounds like some of you had Sister Mary Stigmata for a RO.   .      

The Pa Federation has recognized inconsistent rule application as being a problem.    They have been engaged in the training of ROs with the goal of standardizing the shooting experience from club to club.  

                                        
  

[Vomitus]

 Daryl,Taylor and I have been preaching to the choir for years but half the choir is deaf. A good tight patch,ball, bore combination with an absolute soaking wet patch eliminate any left over burning particles in the bore. Loose or thin patches can leave embers.
  I don't blow down my bore to extinguish any embers, there aren't any. I do it to soften fouling. Evil me.
  Now, when I forget where I am with my loading procedure, my ramrod is my tool for testing, not my mouth.
  IMHO, the "blowing" rule is to protect the weak gene pool.So be it.

[Daryl]

I just wrote out a long post on this topic, then deleted it.

Ditto, LB, except I've never found blowing to be necessary in my rifles or smoothbore to soften fouling - the fouling is alrady soft from the previous shot's lubricant left in the bore by the patch on it's way out.

[xring2245]

First Frontier shot yesterday, 17 shooters 4 or 5 other shooters had other things going.  Have you folks been keeping an eye out for drop off in shooters...

We were down 10 from our average for a one day shoot.

Roger, I would have been there but had to play Civil War for the weekend.  Be back in August, as I will be at Camp Perry for the National shoot next month.


James

[Habu]

Having covered so much of why folks don't go to shoots (a big part of that thread hi-jacking was my fault, and I apologize), we should probably discuss reasons folks used to go to shoots.  Maybe we can stir up some ideas that will bring folks back, and bring in new shooters.   

I called up some folks from the club I started in, and some of the former match shooters I shoot with now, to try to get some ideas.  My old club is gone, it sounded like it just sort of died off--as did a lot of the members that kept it going for so long.  It sounds like keeping the club--and the matches--going was just too much work for those remaining.  Without enough people running things, the quality of the matches declined and the number of shooters dropped off.  It might be worthwhile for some smaller clubs to consider consolidating with other nearby smaller clubs, just so they have enough people to run a quality match.  There needs to be enough people that the folks putting on the match can have some time off to have some fun of their own (or at least get some sleep).   

We always shot to have fun, and except for the time we did the state shoot, we usually had about as many side-matches and fun matches as we did formal target shooting.  Informal re-entry matches, often to help someone out with medical bills or whatever, weren't uncommon either.  I suspect insurance companies today would choke over some of the matches we did, but there are still options (and besides, no one ever got hurt real badly . . . ).  Given a choice, many folks would rather shoot silhouettes than bulls-eye targets.  I don't think that has changed, and most clubs have someone who can cut out and weld together a set of reduced-distance targets.    (I might even have some patterns if anyone needs them, buffalo for sure.)

Prizes were also discussed.  The general consensus was that while grocery shoots are fine for local shoots or some matches, if you want to bring in shooters from a distance, you need "real" prizes.  There just wasn't any agreement whether trophies or merchandise prizes were better.  Trophies often seem to attract newbies in particular, but experienced shooters often seem to prefer merchandise or cash.  One option might be a combination of trophies/plaques and merchandise/gift certificates. 

One shoot was spoken highly of by everyone who knew about it.  It was held from about '95-2002; invitation only, the entry fee was $50.  Some of the matches were crazy (I have fond memories of the 200 yard cross-stick match).  The prizes for each match were powder for first place, choice of flints or caps for second, and lead for third.   

There were a lot of comments about traders' row or the lack thereof.  It seems it is harder to pick up basic shooting supplies at shoots these days, and many gave that as another reason their attendance at matches has fallen off.  It might be a good idea to arrange to have at least the bare minimum of supplies available, if not from a trader at the range (due to insurance restrictions etc) then from a local dealer.   

Surprisingly (to me at least), I heard a lot of comments about bands playing Saturday night at the shoots.  As many folks said they tried to go to a particular shoot because they liked the band or music as said they avoided it because of the music/band.  (I thought I was the only one who avoided shoots for this reason.)  If this is something your club does, it might be something to give some more consideration to and maybe discuss with folks who do or don't (but could) attend your shoots. 

On distance, the consensus seemed to be that 100-150 miles was about all the farther they'd want to travel for a small shoot or one they'd not be staying overnight at.  That hasn't changed a lot, even with gas prices being what they are. 

Probably enough for now.

[SCLoyalist]

I belong to 2 clubs.  One has at least as much  interest in pre-1840 activities (clothing, crafts, camping, cooking) as in shooting muzzleloaders.  The monthly shoots which are just target matches (and not very challenging targets, at that) with no pre-1840 element besides you're using a muzzleloader have only been drawing a half-dozen participants.   The yearly week-long 'vous draws maybe 30 folks, and does have a pre-1840 emphasis.  They can turn out a dozen members for any youth day or hunting& fishing day activity to demonstrate ML shooting to the public.

The other club's interest is shooting muzzleloaders, with relatively little interest in primitive camping, clothing, etc.   Monthly shoot attendance is around 25.    Shooters shoot 25 6bull and 50 yd big bull as one mini-aggregate,  100 yd big bull and a 25 or 50 yd novelty target as a second 'agg',  50 & 100 yd black powder cartridge,  25 & 50 yd pistol.    Shooters are classed as Sharpshooter, Expert or Master and ribbons awarded to top thee shooters in each 'agg' in each shooter class.   Club also keeps track of each shooters best 6 scores of the year and totals them up to award Shooter of the Year trophies at end of the year.   About 3 times a year the club expands the monthly shoot to both Sat and Sun, with metallic silhouettes, primitive, or novelty shoots on the Saturday.  In spring, the club's yearly shoot is about a week long.   Shooting events include primitive archery, a novelty target range, and paper target matches pretty much as you might see at a Territorial.
 

[Vomitus]

  Aggregates for me have always been a sticker in my craw. I think the newbies are choked out of the prizes/medals due to these.JMHO of course.
 Here,we shoot a trailwalk as our main attraction.Pistol,rifle(or smoothbore),hawk and knife. These were, at one time, an aggregate.(maybe throw in shotgun). Now if you are a newby,say with only owning a rifle and maybe a pistol, and shoot real fine with such,you still can't win anything because you don't have a tomahawk & knife or a shotgun.
  This may be a reason for low attendance.  I know it made me want to quit shooting in competitions due to the aggs. So I asked to have it changed...and it was.
  Our club's numbers haven't changed much,but we've got new shooters to replace the elders who have moved on. And that is a good thing.

[Habu]

Maybe it is just a different way of doing things: at most of our local shoots, for the formal matches we'd have aggregates of (for example) the four or five flint rifle matches, but the individual matches still paid off in trophies and prizes.  That way, if all you had was the equipment to participate in one set of matches (flint rifle in this example) you were still in the running for the flint rifle aggregate. 

The tomahawk and throwing knife matches always had spares available to borrow (even if the guy running the throwing station had to loan his), and often throwing 'hawks or knives were prizes.  At least at the smaller shoots, these matches weren't folded into some sort of "grand aggregate."

I suspect that if "doing well" at a shoot meant I had to compete in rifle, pistol, shotgun, tomahawk and knife matches--well, I probably wouldn't bother going.  First, because once travel time is allowed for, I'm not sure there is time to do all those matches at a weekend shoot (which would sort of limit winning to local folks, and there are clubs where this happens).  Second, because while I've won a heap of 'hawk matches, a fair share of tradegun and pistol matches, and even a few rifle matches, I've never had a day in which I did well in all of them.  Trying to do so sounds more like "work" rather than "fun." 
 

[Candle Snuffer]

Today we had one person at our bi-monthly shoot,,, me!  And like always that's because I have to be there to run them.  Well today was the final straw after doing 8 matches a year for the last 12 years and seeing our numbers over that time go from 17 to 0 as of today.  We never were a big club.

I will never run another match!  Over the last 12 years I've collected a grand total of $6.00 in target donations.  The rest of the money has come out of my pocket over those years while supplying club targets.  My own fault however, because I never said any thing out right about it, I just hinted at it.  So much for folks taking a hint. 

I spent two hours last night loading target racks onto my vehicle and making sure all the targets (hanging clays) were drilled and strung for us to shoot at this morning.  No one shows... 

Over the years I've loaned out 3 or 4  pounds of powder out to those members that were low - only to have them try and give me fake powder back when I was good enough to lend some of my Goex to them.  None of the a-holes have ever replace the real powder I've loaned them.

I have simply had enough.  I will not run any more shooting matches ever again.  I may attend a few that others are holding, (and pay my own way), but I'll not hold another.  I'm finished.  Out here where I live this sport has went right into the toilet.  I will now enjoy this sport on my own, like I use to befor the days of the "do everything for me blood suckers" showed up...  Or stopped showing up...   

[Habu]

DANG!  Sorry to hear about that.  Are CCR still around, or the group over at Bordeaux Creek?  Both clubs were good people and fun to shoot with, way back when at least. 

[Candle Snuffer]

Yes, Bordeaux Creek is still there but they only shoot a Spring shoot and then the matches at the Rondy in July.  Camp Clark Raider's is still around down there at Bridgeport, but I can't seem to get on their website today?  I've seen this coming for some time now, so all in all, it really didn't surprise me all that much.  We had a good run for a while.

[Roger Fisher]

Today we had one person at our bi-monthly shoot,,, me!  And like always that's because I have to be there to run them.  Well today was the final straw after doing 8 matches a year for the last 12 years and seeing our numbers over that time go from 17 to 0 as of today.  We never were a big club.

I will never run another match!  Over the last 12 years I've collected a grand total of $6.00 in target donations.  The rest of the money has come out of my pocket over those years while supplying club targets.  My own fault however, because I never said any thing out right about it, I just hinted at it.  So much for folks taking a hint. 

I spent two hours last night loading target racks onto my vehicle and making sure all the targets (hanging clays) were drilled and strung for us to shoot at this morning.  No one shows... 

Over the years I've loaned out 3 or 4  pounds of powder out to those members that were low - only to have them try and give me fake powder back when I was good enough to lend some of my Goex to them.  None of the a-holes have ever replace the real powder I've loaned them.

I have simply had enough.  I will not run any more shooting matches ever again.  I may attend a few that others are holding, (and pay my own way), but I'll not hold another.  I'm finished.  Out here where I live this sport has went right into the toilet.  I will now enjoy this sport on my own, like I use to befor the days of the "do everything for me blood suckers" showed up...  Or stopped showing up...   

Reading this really made me feel bad.  And feel bad for you also. I wonder what in H--- kind of people are around you; but people change and I hope they change around you for the better.  I surely hope someone in or near your club comes out of the woodwork and takes over running your club's matches.  This does happen at times, and I for one also hope you did not sour too much and you stick with them ....There is a saying "you shall reap what you sow"  We are all pulling for your club and you.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Yesterday Micah and Steve Lundgren and I drove up to Baldwin GA to shoot in the NMLRA Territorials with the Blue Ridge Mountain Men......... ......Oh there were some shooters there!!  We had fun!, Steve borrowed my raffleBeck as this was the first time he ever shot BP. I trained him through the first 30 minute period and then we each shot our own Flintlock Aggregate B targets..... he shot better than me!!  I guess that's called success eh??  Can't wait till he gets his Bess finished.

We had 23 registered shooters I believe, which was better than the 17 the year before. I am not sure how many more showed up today.

[Roger Fisher]

Had a shoot today at "Garage Rats" near Stroudsburg, Pa.   5 shooters showed up and we actually had a good altho small shoot. All reentry targets 25 50 & 75 yds offhand and some bench.  Prizes pretty well spread out.  This club is hanging on by it's fingernails; but we are still trying to keep it going.  Future uncertain. Trying to talk more shooters in to 'coming back' with little luck.

[Candle Snuffer]

Reading this really made me feel bad.  And feel bad for you also. I wonder what in H--- kind of people are around you; but people change and I hope they change around you for the better.  I surely hope someone in or near your club comes out of the woodwork and takes over running your club's matches.  This does happen at times, and I for one also hope you did not sour too much and you stick with them ....There is a saying "you shall reap what you sow"  We are all pulling for your club and you.
[/quote]

Thanks Roger, I appreciate your thoughts, though I'm pretty sure this club has sighed its last.  In the mean time I will start going down to Bridgeport, NE to Camp Clark Raider's for their monthly matches.  They have a good following and many of the folks down there I know from my Rendezvous days.  It'll be good seeing them.  I did find their website and they're still kickin' pretty good!

[Bob Roller]

Gun clubs,car clubs.flying clubs. I have been in all three and the carclubs were the worst. These people have the cars and would rather stand around at shows and worry about them than get them out and enjoy them as their makers intended. The flyin clubs were fun and I was in one for over 6 years but then the intersts changed with some members,some moved away and some sold their planes when fuel prices soared as high as the planes and a couple had frightening close calls and decided staying on the ground was safer than near miss mid air collisions.
Our local NRA affiliated club has a fine range and I maintain my membership but also have six days a week use of Bill Large's old range and they are both fourteen miles from my home. The NRA club has an active bunch and has been around for years and seems to be able to maintain a good membership and the interests range from flintlocks to 50 caliber bolt actions.

Bob Roller 

[Canute Rex]

I feel like Johnny One Note here, but those of you who are in the snow belt should organize primitive biathlons - snowshoes and black powder go together. I just went to the website of the Smugglers Notch Primitive Biathlon ( http://www.primitivebiathlon.com/ ) and counted 185 participants on the list from this last January. The numbers generally hover around 200. There are half a dozen within a couple hours drive of the Champlain Valley. The Southerrn Vt. PB had about 150 people show up in February. (http://www.svtpb.org/)

Part of the success, I think, is that there is some athleticism involved. The "gazelles" run it, while those of us with lesser knees stride vigorously. Some people just do it as a walk and ignore the clock - there's a category for that. (I did that at the Southern VT one with an older friend of mine, We just strolled through the winter woods, alternately shooting the breeze and the gongs.) Also, it is in the winter, so people have cabin fever and less to do otherwise. The reenactors come out in full garb, which is always good to see. These biathlons also generally have a few side events - paper targets, hanging targets, five card draw, etc. Also a source of hot food.

Something for everyone, I guess, and an interesting competition. I wouldn't go on about it so much, but I read about these shoots that are trying to get a dozen people and the biathlons are crowded with hundreds.

[Hungry Horse]

I guess I'm the one in a thousand guy. I was at a shoot in Booneville Calif. on a drizzly day with my two nephews several years ago. The boys were all fired up to shoot, but I didn't want to take the chance of an accident, resulting from a hang fire, or wet powder. The boys were not at all happy. An hour later, a guy made a shot, and when the gun didn't sound right, he assumed his powder was wet, and that the round had cleared the barrel, it hadn't. He was going to blow down the barrel, but didn't get the chance. When he looked down the barrel the remaining powder went off, the .54 cal. ball hit him just above his eye. The bullet didn't have enough velocity to go very far, but had enough to enter his head and stop under his skull, above his eyebrow. It didn't even knock him out. He was able to call for help. The boys learned two valuable lessons that day. One is don't put anything in front of the  muzzle unless you want a hole in it. The other is you never know how tough somebody is by looking. I would suspect that if you decided to thump this old boy in some friendly saloon scrap, you might have your work cut out for you. If a .54 cal. ball in the head didn't knock him out, I don't think your best haymaker is going to do the job.
 The fastest growing event my club has is one called the "Shootwhatchabrung". As the name implies any safe functional firearm will have an event. These are all novelty targets shot at close range. The targets change at nearly every event, with one exception. We alway have a rope cutting event open to all shooters, and firearms, that involves cutting a rope with a premium bottle of some sort as the prize. They can't  get enough of this event. We started doing it on New Years day, and then St. Patrick's day, and they now want some more.

                       Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

Snuffer,
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.  We had 10 guys that wanted a monthly woodswalk.  I contacted a landowner friend who gave us permission to set one up.  I was out of town when they did it.  Came back to discover they had hung a bunch of metal trash from coathangers.

Last year the property got selectively logged and the walk was in general disarray.  I gathered up what few decent targets they had and took them home.  I also made up a bunch of new ones.....enough for 22 stations.  Drilled them all and fastened chain to them and painted them.  Called for a work party last April.  three of us showed up....myself, the landowner who was recovering from a heart attack, and a diabetic.  We cleared all the logging debris from the trail and burnt it.  We harvested enough posts to hang all the targets from, buried them, and hung the targets.  In May, 5 shooters showed up, including we three.  In June, only we three showed up and we haven't shot since.  Excuses, excuses, excuses.  I got fed up and told them to contact me when THEY want to shoot.  Haven't had a call yet.

Just cause you build it, don't mean they will come.