Author Topic: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.  (Read 28090 times)

Offline Artificer

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Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« on: June 19, 2012, 05:32:18 AM »
I hope this is the correct forum to post these questions.  I guessed it should be done here because better understanding of 18th century tools may help people better understand the original rifles and better replicate them?

I have tried to do more research on 18th century rasps and files in my effort to put together a period Artificer’s kit.  Found some great articles on where they were made in England and how they were made to include the special file cutter’s hammer.  However, I have hit some solid road blocks with no answers to be found.  I have never been able to examine any original 18th century files and am not sure any sill exist that are not from archaeological digs?  I’m very much hoping some folks may answer some of these questions.

Not too very long ago, there was a guest on the Woodwright's Shop who used a hand cut round rasp and he said the style went back to the late 17th / early 18th century.  The teeth were set both ways so as to not cause as much tear out in the wood as they cut both on the push and pull strokes.  He also said he got them hand cut from France today.  My question is were rasp teeth like that more in the 18th century than they are nowadays - where the teeth are set to only cut on the push stroke?  Or was that rasp with teeth set both ways a specialty rasp for certain types of woodworkers? 

What were the shapes of files commonly used by gunsmiths in the 18th century?  I have the book "A Catalogue of Tools for Watch and Cock Makers," by John Wyke of Liverpool and it demonstrates many specialized shapes of files.  Somewhere in my research on common 18th century file shapes, I ran across a reference that I can not find now that perhaps Barrette files were a/or the most common shape of file for a Gunsmith.  I don't remember if I got that info from the Gun Shop at Colonial Williamsburg or if I have mistaken something I was informed or read.  I may be mixing that up with the somewhat spear pointed flat files we have today?  Were there file shapes that were more common for gunsmiths or did that all have to do with the use of the file?  OR MAYBE, the best question is are there any modern file shapes that were not used in the 18th century? 

I imagine they used both single and double cut files?  Since they used fine cut files to smooth and polish metal, and since the files were all hand cut, I imagine they could have made some very fine files.  What I don’t know is how fine cut were some of files they commonly used.  Generally today there are two grades of fine cut files with these sorts of average teeth per inch.  Smooth, 50 to 60 teeth per inch and Dead. Smooth, 100 or more teeth per inch. Did they have files with 100 or more teeth pre inch for some final finishing work?

I realize files were expensive in the 18th century and in a gun shop they were mounted in some sort of wall/bench bracket or laid them separately, either of which to protect the file teeth.   I have not been able to find a reference for what Artificer’s would have used to protect the files.  I imagine they would have at least wrapped them in rags.  I’m wondering if they would also have used something like an oversize “Flint Wallet” or tool roll – only made from strong cloth and sized to fit the files they had? 

Thank you for reading through this and I would very much appreciate any insight and possibly references in these matters.
Gus

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2012, 08:40:25 AM »
Gus, although I cant really answer your specific questions regarding files and gunmaking, I may have some info you would find of interest. Making my own tools has long been an interest to me, and several years ago I took an interest in the making of files and rasps. One of the first articles I read was here..   http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/matshef/unwin/MSfilecutter.htm      a family history of filecutters and leadbeaters..  From there I found a charming DVD of an old fellow that spent his life making files by hand...  Wilf Davies "filemaker"...   http://www.iarecordings.org/compilations/c21.html     A book to reference..  one of the better books on the making and  history of files..   http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=2771312009&searchurl=kn%3Dmaking%2Bfiles%255C%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Dthe%2Bfile%2Bin%2Bhistory%26x%3D78%26y%3D13 
A short video I made to show my Dad...
After a bit of practice I found the special hammers are the main "secret" to cutting your own files and rasps, the chisel for files and punch for rasps are second,as well as lots of practice like anything else. There are not too many people doing this anymore, but over the last several years it seem that more interest has developed in handcrafted tools. This is good as it keeps people like Auriou and Liogier in buisiness. Hope this helps you out....   Kerry

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2012, 09:08:03 AM »
Kerry,

Thank you so much for that information.  I had run across the first reference, but the rest were new to me.  Really appreciated viewing the video you made to show your dad as it really shows how the file cutter's hammer was actually used. Gives one a whole new appreciation for files back in the day and now.  (Of course, I have to admit I'm a bit crazy about hand files.  Grin.)  Going to have to see about getting a copy of the file book you suggested.  Can they be downloaded and someplace like Kinko's run off the pages for the book?

Gus

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2012, 10:26:16 AM »
The fellows to ask in our day and age might be those still crafting guns by hand professionally in some old time shop, like say, Holland and Holland. I imagine (or would like to think) that there are still men among us who can precisely fabricate a part to exacting tolerances with hand files.

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2012, 01:56:47 PM »
Gus,

Your question is very interesting to me.  Maybe you could give us more information on the artificer's kit.  I have made a box to carry my 18th c gunsmith tools to show-n-tell events, I call it a "journeyman's box".  My research on the 18th c apprentice system at times mentions that the apprentice took with him at the end of his apprenticeship period a set of tools and a new set of clothing.  My box is an interpretation of the box of tools. 

Everything in the box is for metal working and all are original tools or reproductions of original tools.  I am sure that you know that 90% of the work on guns is metalworking, not woodworking.  When I get a round tuit I will post photos of the box & tools.

As to files, I have never been able to locate original files for the box.  Nor have I ever seen original files for sale.  I have seen photos of original files and they look slightly different from the modern ones.  Modern files have a rather sharp shoulder where the file blade transitions to the tang.  18th c files had a much more gradual transition here, almost a taper from the blade down to the tang.  I guess that the modern files could be modified to look more correct by grinding back the shoulder to resemble the period shape.  Let me know if you wish to see photos of original files.  Maybe I can dig back into my references and re-locate the photos.  Later in the summer I will be doing more research in the collection of F&I War artifacts at Fort Ligonier, I will check their collection for any artifact files or other artificer tooling.

Jim

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 03:23:46 PM »
Gus or Blacktail,
Send me your personal e mail addresses and I will show you what can be done with files.
My E mail is <wvgzr@webtv.net>.

Bob Roller

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 07:40:21 PM »
Jim,

As you probably know in the 18th century, Artificers fixed all sorts of things and traveled with military forces to do repairs “in the field” or on campaign.  They also were “in garrison” with British troops.  They included folks who were blacksmiths, gun workers, leather workers and even some wheelwrights with the artillery, amoung other trades.  These men were not normally “Masters,” but men who had some training and some of it may have been in an apprenticeship.  Artificers also could have been civilians hired for a campaign, especially in North America. 

It is important to realize that when Artificer’s Kits were issued, it was not just for the repair of small Arms, but for a wide range of repair.  In the 18th century, most of the British Army was garrisoned in Ireland, with the exceptions of those serving in India, some other spots and of course when armies were sent to North America for the F&I War and Revolutionary War.  I have seen a photo of an original drawing of a British Artificers’ Wagon from the mid 18th century in Ireland someone kindly posted on another forum.  It is large enough to carry tools and equipment for maybe three or four men to work inside and had a canvas/cloth top.  There was also a table in front of the wagon.  I have not been able to find out if those wagons were only used in Garrison in Ireland, as wagons were normally hired on this continent when the British were on campaign.   

Small Arms of British Forces in America, 1664-1815, by De Witt Bailey has lists of various kits and gunmakers tools issued to British Forces during our period including “Armourers Tools to Accompany Oglethorpe’s Regiment to Georgia , 4 Nov 1737”  and “An Account of Armourer’s Tools & Materials, for repairing small arms for the Army, Albany, Oct 1757,” and “Armourer’s Tools for the Army and Navy, being sent to America, Oct. 1778.”  These are listed in Appendix IV on pages 304 through 307.  I think you would really enjoy going over those lists as each one has similar things and some different things. 

I decided to set up my reproduction tool kit as an Artificer’s kit because most of the work I have done on originals and reproductions have been on military arms or military leather goods.  I’m getting a little long of tooth and have some medical problems that is making it difficult to put on a Philabeg and other Highland Gear as a Private Soldier in the 42nd RHR, as much as I love to do it.  As I have been repairing muskets for many years on the side in my shop or out of my truck or hidden in a tent where my modern tools can not bee seen at reenactments, I figure this way I can still go to reenactments and portray something I like to do and is a valuable contribution. 

I have been most fortunate living in Virginia and not too far away from Colonial Williamsburg for much of my adult life.  That is another source for you to check.  Since my first trip in the early 70’s, I have haunted the Gun Shop to ask questions.  More recently, I have taken advantage of going on their web site and asking questions through email.  (They have always very quickly answered and have been most generous with their answers and time.)  On the last trip I was there about four years ago, they had a reproduction of a Journeyman’s tool box and it was smaller than I would have thought, even considering it may/would have held a VERY basic set of tools.  They showed me some lists of Artificer’s tool kits as well.  Every time I go in there, I run out of time before I run out of questions OR I think of something I should have asked afterwards. 

I further highly appreciate this forum because there are even more people who are so gracious and willing to help.
Gus


Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 07:41:14 PM »
Gus or Blacktail,
Send me your personal e mail addresses and I will show you what can be done with files.
My E mail is <wvgzr@webtv.net>.

Bob Roller

Thank you Bob,

I'll PM you.

Gus

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 07:48:46 PM »
If I'm recalling correctly, "The Tool Box of Benjamin Seaton" contains files and rasps, some in their original papers? The files are briefly discussed, and maybe photographed in the book of that name.
Seaton's tool chest is one of the most complete 18th century wood workers kits extant, and the book might be well worth having if you are assembling something similar..
tc
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 07:59:36 PM »
Good suggestion, TC,

I have photo's of the Seaton Tool Chest and will have to look at them again, though I don't think they showed the files in detail.   Maybe the book does.

Gus

Offline Habu

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 10:54:22 PM »
Anytime I have any question about tools of the 18th century, the first place I turn is Diderot's Encyclopedia.  The quickest way to access it is to perform an image search with Google, using "Diderot" "encyclopedia" and successive variations of the desired search terms, then sort through the images.  (It is available online http://encyclopedie.uchicago.edu/ but frankly I've never been able to figure out how to find things there--not enough French vocabulary I guess.)

It might also be worth taking a look at Hummel's With Hammer In Hand.  The book discusses the workshop and products of the Dominy family of clockmakers/woodworkers between 1760-1840, and is heavily illustrated with photos of the surviving tools. 

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 02:20:11 AM »
Hi Gus, your most welcome. The book from Diston has a front section on file history with a few pictures altho small and hard to see. IIRC, they had plenty of assortement of shapes back in the day, probably more than now as a lot of files could have been made for very specific uses. One point I thought interesting is that a brand new file was fairly thick, and when worn would be sent back for rebuilding. The files were annealed, ground smooth and the teeth recut. You have to remember carbon steels were expensive. Before steel was more commonplace iron was used and there are recipes available for carburizing very similar to how a gunsmith "packhardens" parts in a forge. Habu mentioned Diderot's encyclopedia, I believe I got some of my info from there too. Some of the first information on files was published by Theopoulis in his manuals on metalworking (1100`s). A deep and interesting subject.
Also, thx for the description of "artificer". I could see myself in that function.. Jack of trades, master of a couple maybe   ;) ;) 
  one that I made
 ....  regards..        Kerry

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 05:42:32 AM »
Habu,

I've had the same problem trying to access Diderot online as you have.  I've owned the two volume printed set for years and that does help some.  The one major thing I would have changed in High School was studying three years of French instead of the three yearsof German I took. 

Thanks for the suggestion on "With Hammer in Hand." 
Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 06:19:02 AM »
One point I thought interesting is that a brand new file was fairly thick, and when worn would be sent back for rebuilding. The files were annealed, ground smooth and the teeth recut. You have to remember carbon steels were expensive. Before steel was more commonplace iron was used and there are recipes available for carburizing very similar to how a gunsmith "packhardens" parts in a forge.

Also, thx for the description of "artificer". I could see myself in that function.. Jack of trades, master of a couple maybe   ;) ;) 
      Kerry
 
Kerry,
I did not know they often made files very thick with an eye towards remaking them in the future, even though I knew steel was very expensive during that period.  That is very interesting and useful information.  Thank you.

As I undesand it, I don’t believe Armourer Artificers normally knew how to repair a split barrel (other than to cut them off behind the split) and most of them did not know how to make a barrel or complete lock.  These were already well established “Sub Trades” of Gunsmithing in England during our period and if folks were GOOD at those jobs, they would most likely not have worked for lower wages or poorer living conditions in the Army vs what they could make as a civilian.  I can’t imagine a true gunsmith doing the work with the Army other than if he was running from debt, the law or some “socially domestic” problem.  Grin.  A true gunsmith could and did do work on contract with a permanent military fort that was close to his shop or he may have set up shop close to the fort for the business here in the colonies, though.  However, keeping the firearms (and other equipment) repaired “in the field” was as valuable to the military then as it is today. 

I think a modern parallel to an Armourer Artificer would be a standard Infantry Weapons Repairer or Armorer as the MOS is called today – ALTHOUGH the Artificer would have had to know a lot more about hand fitting parts and hardening/annealing them.  So maybe it would be closer to what the Marine Corps called a Rifle – Pistol Team Repairman or more recently a Precision Weapons Repairer.  I did the first job for 2 years and then took a one year apprenticeship to qualify as the second and did that for most of the rest of my 26 years in the Corps.  Though we were called “The Gunsmiths of the Corps,” we were not true gunsmiths because we could not make a barrel or action. 
Gus


Offline DutchGramps

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 09:45:31 AM »
Artificer,
There is a 5 page article on files in the 1839  "Dictionary of Arts, Manufactures and Mines"by Andrew URE, M.D. If you are interested I can scan and send you a copy.
Hans
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Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 01:36:19 PM »
Guys,

Here we are running into a really open question.  There are myriads of publications that describe antique wood working tools, buy none that describe metal working tools - like files.  But, there are a few hidden glimmers of information.

Here is a photo and description of dated 18th c articifer's files found from a dig at an 18th c British Rev War site.




Check out the fifth one from the top.  It appears to be exactly identical to a modern file you can buy today.

Here is a picture and description of the John Wyke tool catalog from the mid-18th c.



I have some more photos of files from a Colonial Williamsburg book, let me know if you wish to see them.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 07:15:25 AM by rich pierce »

Offline Curtis

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 02:58:26 PM »
Here is a link at Google Books to the book Grampa Hans mentioned, A dictionary of arts, manufactures, and mines:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IK88AQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=file&f=false

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Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 07:09:14 PM »


Here is a photo and description of dated 18th c articifer's files found from a dig at an 18th c British Rev War site.

Check out the fifth one from the top.  It appears to be exactly identical to a modern file you can buy today.

I have some more photos of files from a Colonial Williamsburg book, let me know if you wish to see them.

Jim

Oh boy, am I embarrassed.  I’ve had a copy of the Collector’s Encyclopedia of the American Revolution since it was first published and my copy is super worn.  Still, I never noticed the excavated files.  GREAT stuff there! 

The file fifth from the top looks like a standard “hand” file to be sure.  The bottom left Three Square file could have been used used to make dovetail cuts in the barrels for sights or barrel lugs. 

One thing I’m noticing that is different about these files vs modern files, is there was little or no attempt to make them truly parallel in width or identical shape on both sides.  Probably from forging/upsetting the metal out on the anvil?  Of course there would be no need for the sides to be parallel on most files and who chares if the curve on one side of a file is a little different than the other?  I’m sure they could have made equalling files that are parallel in width and thickness for precision work, but that would have made the file a lot more costly. – so those may/would have been the exception to the rule?  I’m GUESSING that the sides of the files would not generally have teeth on them as well, unless they were ordered that way and they would cost more because of the added labor to cut teeth on the sides? 

From Kerry’s and this and other info, maybe what someone informed me years ago was that many files were shaped like a barrette file and only had teeth cut on one side?  However, the steel in the file would have been the major cost in the 18th century and it was basically forged out, it would not have added a lot of cost to cut teeth on both sides?

I would appreciate seeing more photo’s from your CW book. I do not have the capabiity to take and post photo’s, but I think I will feel good enough in the next day or two to type out some of the lists of tools I mentioned, if you would like?
Thanks, Gus

Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 07:10:00 PM »
Here is a link at Google Books to the book Grampa Hans mentioned, A dictionary of arts, manufactures, and mines:
Curtis

GREAT!  Thank you very much.
Gus

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2012, 07:47:53 PM »
Google Books and Archives.org are always good resources: here's a start....

The file: its history, making and uses; a description of the development of ...
 By Henry Disston & Sons, Inc. (Philadelphia, Pa.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=1mNBAQAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=file+making&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yKDkT8KXEIe88ATDpIDXCQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=file%20making&f=false

Circle of Mechanical Arts published 1813 - has a chapter on file making, gun making, and much more
http://books.google.com/books?id=6_oGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=circle+of+mechanical+arts&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SKHkT83eH4Ko8QSIrvn5CQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20mechanical%20arts&f=false
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2012, 09:30:19 PM »
Chuck,

Thank you and ESPECIALLY for the last link you provided where it explains what a "Rubber" was.  I saw this on some of the Arrmourers/Artificers lists and had no idea what they were talking about.

"The very heavy files, such as the smith's Rubbers ; are made of the inferior marks of blister steel, the more delicate kind, such as watch-makers files, being made of cast steel."  Page 335.  

It sounds like a heavy file to do draw filing, perhaps?  

Gus
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:31:28 PM by Artificer »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 01:10:00 AM »
I think it was Helmut Mohr in Germany that told me about BIG files that were used by two men (apprentices) to file barrels to octagonal shape. They were used like a crossc cut saw. I will ask him the next time I talk with him to make sure of this and also to find out if any of these big files are still around or if the were all melted down during WW2 and became parts for a Tiger Tank.

Bb Roller

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 02:38:04 AM »
dutchgramps, chuck, thx for the links. I had not seen these before. Somewhere I have seen an old woodcut of an Armourers shops showing the large files mentioned as well as what looks like  wheelock parts and stocks hanging behind the workmen. A thought Ive had (comeing from filing actuall WROUGHT IRON)is that the stuff files and cuts beautifully and a file that you may wear out on harder steels will/would last much longer working wrought iron. Sometimes I also think that we have forgotten so much about trades that certain things like the knowledge of cutting of files may have been more common than we think and that within your trade that might have been shared in your apprenticeship.   regards..
Kerry   

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2012, 04:07:34 AM »


Note the shoe on the wall, upper right, as a catch-all for small tools. That's what I can use my old shoes for!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 07:15:50 AM by rich pierce »
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Offline KNeilson

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Re: Questions on 18th century files and rasps.
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2012, 04:50:57 AM »
Yup. thats the picture I was describing. I guess I`m wrong about the files, been a while since I was reading up on this... I have a look later @ Hm.........  Kerry