Questions on 18th century files and rasps.

[Acer Saccharum]

Some engraving tools, John Wyke.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is another of the rare references to 18th c metal working tools.  This is from a sealed bundle of files found in a river rapids, apparently lost during the fur trade.  They are English so they are post F&I War period.  Please notice the deep corrosion streaks in the files.  Those familiar with the characteristics of wrought iron will recognize this as coarse or unrefined wrought iron.   These files were either case hardened wrought iron or coarse blister steel - really these are the same thing.

Gus,  These look like exactly what your post describes as inferior blister steel.

Jim

[Artificer]

I think it was Helmut Mohr in Germany that told me about BIG files that were used by two men (apprentices) to file barrels to octagonal shape. They were used like a crossc cut saw. I will ask him the next time I talk with him to make sure of this and also to find out if any of these big files are still around or if the were all melted down during WW2 and became parts for a Tiger Tank.

Bb Roller

I must confess I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a large file being used like a crosscut saw to file flats on an octagonal barrel and I can't picture it.  I can visualize if the file was heavy enough and did not stick out too far from the sides of the barrel, that two apprentices might draw or push it along to sheer off the wrought iron.  Looking forward to hearing more on this.

Gus

[Artificer]

Guys,

Here is another of the rare references to 18th c metal working tools.  This is from a sealed bundle of files found in a river rapids, apparently lost during the fur trade.  They are English so they are post F&I War period.  

Gus,  These look like exactly what your post describes as inferior blister steel.

Jim

Great stuff, Jim.  The chart showing the sizes and cuts is valuuable information.  It is noteable there are no single cut files for working brass or other softer metals than iron or steel.

Gus

[KNeilson]

I must confess I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a large file being used like a crosscut saw

I know I have somewhere seen a picture of a large two man file, I will search my reference material. IIRC it was used to "level" which I understood as flatenning a surface (say smoothing out a forging). The large file itself was inset into a wooden holder with handles on each end to increase cutting pressure. I always assumed they would be "drawfiling" with it.  Some were held in what looks like a carpenters plane, for one man operation. Another book Ive referenced is the mechanician. (I have a 1st ed)..more for 19 c engineers, but lots of pictures of "how things were done" and a small bit on files (p183)  http://archive.org/stream/cu31924003965039#page/n192/mode/1up      regards...  Kerry

[Artificer]

Well, I typed out one of the long Armourer's lists on a Word File and when I pasted/copied it here,the thing was all jumblied around on the message typing section.  Then I tried to correct it in the "typing" section and when I tried the preview again, it was still all jumblied around.  Does any of the BBC tags allow one to copy/paste something so it shows up properly on the forum?  

Gus

[Artificer]

I must confess I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of a large file being used like a crosscut saw

I know I have somewhere seen a picture of a large two man file, I will search my reference material. IIRC it was used to "level" which I understood as flatenning a surface (say smoothing out a forging). The large file itself was inset into a wooden holder with handles on each end to increase cutting pressure. I always assumed they would be "drawfiling" with it.    Kerry

On the list I'm trying to copy here, they list 12 each of both 3lb and 2lb Rubbers.
Gus

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

In the reference Voices From the Rapids there are several pages of detailed descriptions of the files - at least from the archaelogist's point of view.  If there is interest I can post this detail here.

Gus,  If you have such a list - try scanning it as a .jpg file and post it here as you would do a photograph.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

A barrel from mid to late 18th C imported barrel, probably German or Belgian.
I am making assumptions here, just posting what I see.
Note the tool marks going ACROSS the flats. Top five flats nicely finished, bottom three 'as supplied'.

[Artificer]

Wow, Acer,

I've read where you, Flintriflesmith and others have mentioned the bottom three flats were not finely filed as they did not show, but the barrel you have shown is a lot rougher than I would have ever thought.  Yes, it does look like it was filed across the flats.  Thank you for that great photo.
Gus

[Pete G.]

I would think that the tool marks on the bottom of the barrel are grinding marks from shaping the octagon against a grindstone.
I have a barrel that left the bottom flats as they were forged, no attempt at shaping whatsoever. When time is money and money is scarce folks tend to waste neither. Sometimes "Good enough" really is good enough.

[Artificer]

Folks, I don't know how to do .jpg files and post as a photo.  I'm sorry, but this is the best I can do at trying to get the columns to line up.  From De Witt Bailey's "Small Arms of the British Forces in America"  Page 306

AN ACCOUNT OF AMROURERS’
TOOLS AND MATERIALS
That will be wanted for the service of the armourers
that may be employed in
REPAIRING SMALL ARMS FOR THE ARMY
Albany, 31 Oct 1757

Vices         Standing         6
         Hand            6
Wrenches                     3
Stakes         4 lb.            4
Hammers         Hand            6
            Small         6
Punches & Cold Chisels            48
Iron Braces                  6
Square Bits      Of Sorts         18
Screw Plate with 7 taps            6
Screw Plate for Britch Pins [breech plugs]   3
Drills         Of Sorts                24
Drill Boxes                          24
Drill Bows                     6
Drill String Knots                                   12
Breast Pieces                                      6
Rubbers (*1 )      3 lb              12
                                     2 lb         12
Files of Sorts      Hand 1 ½         24
            8 Bastard         24
            Large Bastard      18
            Large Smooth Flat   24
            12d Smooth      36
            9 d            36
            6 d            36
            3 d            36
            6 d  Rough      80
            2 d             100
            Slitting         6
            3 Square         36
            Round          36
            Do ½         36
            Bent            24
Screw Drivers (*2)                  8
File Handles                  500
Burnishers                  6
Spring Hooks                  6
Forge Tongs small pair            6
RODS         Wiping Muskets      6
            Spring scraper      6
            Do. Boarers      6
NAILS [screws]      Lock                  20,000
            Cock            3,000
            Side            2,000
            Breech         1,000
            Tumbler         10,000
Polishing Brushes               24
Tumblers                     500
Sears                     200
Springs          Main            300
            Hammer         300
            Sear            200
Tips, Brass (*3)   for Rammer Rods   1,000
            for Stocks         150
Brass Pipes                  1,000
Brass Side Plates               500
Hammers [Frizzens]               3,000
Cocks                     1,000
Spare Chops [Top Jaws]            1,000
Swivels for Slings               10,000
Swivel Pins                   5,000
Emory          Fine, pounds      12
            Coarse,          24
Borax                     24
Spelter                     6
Wire            Binding, pounds      10
            Pinning         20

N.B.  This is Estimated for six Armourers compleat if separate but 12 men together can work conveniently with the above Tools.
William Saltonstall
Commissary Royal Artillery

My NOTES:
(1)  Rubbers are listed as 3 or 2 lbs each, so that would be a BIG File in either size.
(2)  The use of the term “Screwdrivers” is unusual instead of the more common “Turnscrews.”  I don’t think De Witt Bailey changed this to the modern term when he copied the list as he usually put modern terms in [ ] brackets, but I’m not sure of course.   However, what is unusual that since this “kit” is meant for 6 Armourers and there are only EIGHT of the Screw Drivers.  Either the screw slots were somewhat common amoung the screws or they were too small for some screw slots.
(3)  Tips Brass for Rammer Rods would have meant for Wood Ramrods and Stock Tips probably meant replacements for the then NEW cast brass stock tips of the Model 1756 Brown Bess Muskets.
 

[Artificer]

I would think that the tool marks on the bottom of the barrel are grinding marks from shaping the octagon against a grindstone.
I have a barrel that left the bottom flats as they were forged, no attempt at shaping whatsoever. When time is money and money is scarce folks tend to waste neither. Sometimes "Good enough" really is good enough.

That's interesting Pete,

I would have thought the grind marks would have gone with the grain from a grinding stone?  I am imagining a dowel through the bore that would be suspended in two uprights with a hole in each to try to keep the flats somewhat 'True?"

Gus

[Chuck Burrows]

19th Century barrel grinding image

[Artificer]

Thanks for the pictures,Chuck.  That looks like pictures I've seen from Enfield Lock?

Gus

[Acer Saccharum]

Holy smokes! No dust masks, no ear protection....and DON'T fall asleep and fall into your grinding wheel! No matter, people didn't live much past 40 anyway.

[Artificer]

A lot of folks got seriously injured or killed while grinding blades and other things in that time period as well - when the stones broke.

[Acer Saccharum]

It's not like they are going to be able to shut the whole mill right off in an emergency. Gotta shut the millrace down, or the steam engine. Oy. Might take a couple of minutes, all the while your arm is getting ground off. 

[KNeilson]

I think the term is "putting your nose to the grindstone". If you look at the first picture that fellow sure is.......Shutting the mill down, I doubt they would hear your screaming over the constant din, probably knock the belt off with a stick, wait till the wheel slowed enough and pull on what they could get a hold off...I think I prefer the modern outlook towards personal safety..  More on the subject.. from "The file in History" 

Note the heaviest file as 47# , also mentioned "arm" files sometimes as heavy as 20# . An interesting point is mentioned under "file cutters among the colonists"..... "in1698 there were in Philadelphia Artificers of many kinds, among them cutlers, gunsmiths,locksmiths, nailers, and  filecutters                         I still cant find the other picture yet....   regards...Kerry

[Artificer]

WOW !!  A two hinged file that weighed 46 pounds!!!  Enjoyed that, Thank you.
Gus

[boman]

I found this thread very interesting and if you go to the link there is a video of how hand cut wood rasps are currently being made in france by this company.  Other than the more modern steels and automated tools I would think the process is similar to 18th century.

http://forge-de-saint-juery.com/index.html

Steve

[dannybb55]

I would think that the tool marks on the bottom of the barrel are grinding marks from shaping the octagon against a grindstone.
I have a barrel that left the bottom flats as they were forged, no attempt at shaping whatsoever. When time is money and money is scarce folks tend to waste neither. Sometimes "Good enough" really is good enough.

My treadle stone leaves a smooth finnish, that looks like the marks of a rough cut file, coarser than a bastard cut.
                     Danny

[JWBlair]

As a user of files and old tool collector I've found this one of the most interesting discussions I've read in a good while.Although,LOL,my book want list increased considerably.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Just found a nice antique fine cut wood rasp.  It is marked BOKER and was made in Germany prior to 1837.  It looks very much like the artifact files/rasps that have been posted previously and dating from the 18th c.  Unfortunately the Boker company records were lost due to a visit from some rowdy guys from the 8th A.F. in 1944, so I was not able to get any closer to an exact date.  The rasp is marked CAST STEEL with the BOKER manufacture mark, it is hand cut and in pretty good shape, useable!  It does look a lot like the modern hand made rasps you can get today, but these cost a lot more than the $8 this one cost.  I really don't use these very much, remember that the wood is only the stuff that holds the really important metal parts together!!!!

Articifer - are you envious?

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Here's a Belgian or German made barrel that looks like it was roughly filed. Found on an American gun, ca 1775, give or take ten years.