Author Topic: critiquing in general  (Read 28764 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2012, 08:53:43 PM »
Brutally honest?

How about just plain honest?  ... honest with kindness and respect, and a true interest in being helpful.

Do not critique someone's work if you are angry at them, or feel like you are better than they are. Do not critique if what you really want to do is hurt them. Critique given with intent to hurt, no matter how hidden, will cause resentment, and defensive behavior. The critique falls on deaf ears, and the egos puff up beyond salvage.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9687
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2012, 09:11:54 PM »
How about constructive criticism and leave the brutality to the Taliban. Harsh criticism will make for bad feelings and ill will toward all involved. Constructive criticism is helpful and no one is embarassed. Nobody is ever going to reach a state of such perfection so as to be beyond improvement.

Bob Roller
 

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2012, 10:32:19 PM »
How about constructive criticism and leave the brutality to the Taliban. Harsh criticism will make for bad feelings and ill will toward all involved. Constructive criticism is helpful and no one is embarassed. Nobody is ever going to reach a state of such perfection so as to be beyond improvement.

Bob Roller
 



Well said.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • NYSSR ―
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2012, 10:48:27 PM »
Yeah, wrong word, take a break fellows, only kidding! Geeze!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2012, 11:12:45 PM »
Yeah, wrong word, take a break fellows, only kidding! Geeze!
Robby

Understood completely, Robby.

Written words are all we have on the forum. They must be chosen carefully so our real intent comes across, not a misinterpretation that causes hurt feelings or a battle. Example: someone who's feeling a little down, and they assume the worst from an ambiguous statement.

I'm just trying to point out the importance of choosing one's word when we are talking critique. Critique can be hard to take, even when it's completely constructive and delivered in the kindest way. It's a sensitive issue.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2012, 04:50:53 AM »
I disagree with all this touchy feely stuff. Sometimes a good wack over the head is the only way to get there. Case in point:
Some years ago I was showing around one of my latest guns at Conner Prairie and Don Getz was there. He let out a shriek and moan  and commented on how awfull my gun was. What he did was point out an architectural flaw that I had been repeating for quite some time . With out his brutally honest critique I'd probably still be making the same mistake. Any less brutall and I probably would have ignored him. A shake up is usually needed to get somebody's attention.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2012, 05:06:25 AM »
It is true that SOMETIMES some people require a 2x4  to the head just to let in a breath of fresh air cause they are convinced they are doing it RIGHT!! :o ;D

Many will get defensive and then their ears go shut ...so the feedback does no good...consider who you are commenting to and word it the way you you think will work for them.... they may be like you..and they may not....

One of the things I find most engaging about this site is the opportunity to get input from many of the best. I think it is helping me improve my work... 
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2012, 05:41:34 AM »
You duh man, Mike, he, he, he.....

I do suppose some heads are harder than normal...not mine, though. 8)
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline b bogart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 06:04:04 AM »
Gotta remember my bicycle helmet at the next requested critique. My feelings can handle it but that constant throbbing headache is a little much ;)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 06:48:51 AM »
If you're training a litter of pups, do you hit them ALL with a 2x4, or do you try to see how each dog needs to be treated? Maybe just one dog is a tough guy and needs a strong correction, but hitting ALL of the dogs will most likely ruin them. You have no business training dogs.

I'm trying to say that some discretion should be employed when critiquing someone's work.

Tom




Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • NYSSR ―
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 03:16:25 PM »
Sometimes its a matter of, who's holding the 2X4!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 08:34:40 PM »
Sometimes its a matter of, who's holding the 2X4!
Robby



+1
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Kopfjaeger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 403
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 10:39:48 AM »
Just be sure if you can dish it out that you can take it also.

If you can your a good person.

If you can't your a hypocrite.


Acer Saccharum,

Thank you for your comment above.  Well Said

Its not the critiquing thats makes someone mad, its the way its done.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 03:06:49 PM by Kopfjaeger »
" A godly man and his rifle deprive sleep from the wicked, A christian man who prays is the defeater of evil, A praying man who will fight is the conqueror of nations and the hope of the oppressed "

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »
Quote
Just be sure if you can dish it out that you can take it also.

If you can your a good person.

If you can't your a hypocrite.

Bring it on. Some people like my junk, some people don't.  My work has been somewhat controversial, but it isn't boring. ;D

I guess I was raised in a different way in a different time.  ::)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 07:47:32 PM »
What bugs me the most, is stuff that is said amongst others, but not to me directly. If I ask, then I would appreciate an honest appraisal .  Personal taste is subjective, obviously, but that still leaves a lot of room for objectivity. example- Nate;s loooong fowler......subjective [ personal taste ]   I think low relief carving would better suite the gun .   Objective- I prefer more room /space in front of the trigger than behind ie move the guard forward a tad.   First comment can be easily dismissed by many.  The 2nd is an honest attempt at constructive criticism    :)

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2012, 12:24:07 AM »
Mike, I happen to like your junk very much.

Bob, those are some really good comments. Separation of opinion from honest critique can be difficult.

On Nate's original posting, I didn't see any request by him for critical feedback, so I didn't offer any. I like his carving, it's very folksy. But that's my opinion, and not criticism.

When I post a gun on line, I don't ask for criticism, because I ask individuals during the build: collectors, and builders whose opinion I respect for the style of gun I'm building. It's a more project-specific kind of input.

The best input is from an experienced builder IN PERSON. Example: I am building a Lehigh, and I bring to Mark Wheland at Lewisburg. He's looking at it, running his fingers over the stock, then his gaze drifts across the room. I'm a little puzzled, I thought he was checking out my stock work. But then he looks back at the stock, and says he can feel the transitions better than he can see them. "This is a little fat right here, and here...etc"

Ah! the light bulb turns on! You'll never get the full picture when posting your work on line. Photographs can lie: they can make the work look better than it is, or WORSE than it is.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2012, 12:41:39 AM »
Quote
Separation of opinion from honest critique can be difficult.

I think it's all the same. It's all opinion. Only thing is some people's opinions mean more than other's. Those with great experience opinions weigh more heavily than those opinions of those with less experience. Not only experience with gunbuilding but an understanding of art and design are equally important.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2012, 12:53:14 AM »
Quote
Separation of opinion from honest critique can be difficult.

I think it's all the same. It's all opinion. Only thing is some people's opinions mean more than other's. Those with great experience opinions weigh more heavily than those opinions of those with less experience. Not only experience with gunbuilding but an understanding of art and design are equally important.

Really, Mike, where did you read that?
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4473
    • Personal Website
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2012, 03:19:43 AM »
The opinions I value most are from those who have the knowledge and ability to do the work very well.  This results in a pretty small list.  Those who are soley students or collectors seem to generally have a much more limited perspective.  Ask yourself who is a serious student of the longrifle and at the same time a top notch builder.  In my view these are the opinions that matter most.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2012, 05:04:02 AM »
Quote
Separation of opinion from honest critique can be difficult.

I think it's all the same. It's all opinion. Only thing is some people's opinions mean more than other's. Those with great experience opinions weigh more heavily than those opinions of those with less experience. Not only experience with gunbuilding but an understanding of art and design are equally important.

Really, Mike, where did you read that?
Surprisingly , I'm capable of independent thought.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2012, 05:07:56 AM »
The opinions I value most are from those who have the knowledge and ability to do the work very well.  This results in a pretty small list.  Those who are soley students or collectors seem to generally have a much more limited perspective.  Ask yourself who is a serious student of the longrifle and at the same time a top notch builder.  In my view these are the opinions that matter most.
That's about how I see it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2012, 06:12:47 AM »
I certainly agree with that position. Feedback from masters carries more weight.... That concerns what is being said about the gun.

the other part of the equation is how it is said. I try to make sure it is descriptive, high quality communication.  Is it clear that the intention behind it is to help..... Derogatory terms and generalizations are not nearly as helpful.  "I like it" is nice but not very helpful.  "It's infantile dog $#@*"  :o is also not very helpful.  Point out the specific shapes or features that you think are well done or that should be done differently. Also remember when you post a gun and ask for feedback it takes work on the part of people to give it to you..gratitude is always good...

Sometimes....maybe not often.... but sometimes...even a beginner may say something that is helpful feedback..... ;D I try to listen... really........
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2012, 03:46:13 PM »
Surprisingly , I'm capable of independent thought.

I never doubted that for a minute.

Tom
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Don Tripp

  • Guest
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2012, 05:31:27 PM »
Quote
Just be sure if you can dish it out that you can take it also.

If you can your a good person.

If you can't your a hypocrite.

Bring it on. Some people like my junk, some people don't.  My work has been somewhat controversial, but it isn't boring. ;D

I guess I was raised in a different way in a different time.  ::)
Ok, Here it goes....

I have to say that I like the Comet rifle that is on your website, in particular the way that you installed the lock on the proper side of the stock. I've seen a lot of other rifles that are great except for that feature.

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: critiquing in general
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2012, 12:33:07 AM »

Surprisingly , I'm capable of independent thought.
[/quote]


NO WAY!!!!!!! ;D

Jim's point about the best feedback coming from builders/students is something I hadn't really thought about. But, the few times that I manage to get my stuff in front of the pros, it is those guys (builders/students) that do seem to offer the best insight as to how to improve.

Great thread.