I'm stumped

[Robby]

 .54 cal.,Rice 46" barrel, with Nock type hook breech, nice smooth crown and ball starts easily, .535 ball,  110gr. FF, .022 pillow ticking washed, lubed with either spit or a moose milk variant, always finish cleaning with WD-40, always thoroughly wipe clean and dry before a range session.
Without fail, the first shot, always at fifty yards, is accurate, but the patch is a black and shredded mess, I always check. There after, all the patches are what you would expect and accuracy is still on point. I tried it with mink oil and got the same results. Its probably not a big deal, because it is impacting where it should, maybe a touch low, but I can't figure it out. All my guns are first shot guns, and I like to have complete confidence in them. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Robby

[bgf]

That is a little mysterious, but I have a theory.  On subsequent reloads perhaps the patch pushed fouling down on top of the charge, providing some protection to the patch?  Also, maybe the grooves are deeper than your other rifles, so it makes more of a difference.

[Hungry Horse]

Robby;

 Two questions. What is the twist rate? And, why are you using WD-40? The WD, in WD-40 stands for water displacing, so unless you are in scuba gear, you need a lubricant, that doesn't evaporate. I  used WD-40 when I first started shooting muzzleloaders almost forty years ago, and found out pretty soon there were a lot of other products that were much better.
 I think there is no reason to shoot 110 grns. of powder on a target range, unless you are shooting a heavy bench gun, a 500 yard range, or you have a very slow twist in the barrel. My .50 cal. Montana barrel has a 1 in72" twist and does the same thing to patches as you mentioned, except it doesn't cure up after the first shot. I found it really liked a fat charge, and a really loose patch ball combination, believe it or not, the loose arrangement cured the shredded patches.

                       Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

Fat charge and loose patch  ?  What is accuracy like ?  That runs  contrary to all my findings over the last 30 years!   I must hear more     Fouling ?  What lube etc ?
thanks

[Robby]

If I remember the twist is 1:66. round bottom rifling.
I am NOT using WD-40 as lube. When I clean the gun and put it up, it is swabbed with WD-40.
Before I start a range session I swab out the bore, chamber of of any residual WD-40.
I lube the patch with spit, or a moose milk mixture, or mink oil.
The only patch that is shredded is the first one. All that follow are as one would expect, or hope for as the case may be.
Bob, accuracy is as stated. I thought a .022 patch and .535 ball was a tight combo. Ball goes down easy, no matter how many shots are taken.
Just had a thought, is it possible that the WD-40 is drying and leaving a varnishing effect in the bore that I'm not removing with my pre-shooting wipe down, that is removed with the first shot?
Robby

[jamesthomas]

 I don't know about a varnishing effect, never heard of it, but I use B-C Barricade and before shooting swab it out with a SOAKED alcohol patch followed by a dry patch. What are you using to swab out the barrel before shooting?  I only use WD-40 on my lock internals  to get rid of any fouling or grime when cleaning.

[Daryl]

If I remember the twist is 1:66. round bottom rifling.
I am NOT using WD-40 as lube. When I clean the gun and put it up, it is swabbed with WD-40.
Before I start a range session I swab out the bore, chamber of of any residual WD-40.
I lube the patch with spit, or a moose milk mixture, or mink oil.
The only patch that is shredded is the first one. All that follow are as one would expect, or hope for as the case may be.
Bob, accuracy is as stated. I thought a .022 patch and .535 ball was a tight combo. Ball goes down easy, no matter how many shots are taken.
Just had a thought, is it possible that the WD-40 is drying and leaving a varnishing effect in the bore that I'm not removing with my pre-shooting wipe down, that is removed with the first shot?
Robby

Robby- I have heard others speak of a varnish/like substnace left in the bore if a LOT of WD 40 is left over after oiling. Taylor and I and others here, store our guns muzzle down. I suggest you try that. I've not seen a first patch in the condition you've described, so I'm, guessing as to the cause.  It sounds as if the first one is being cut for some reason. I do not understand that. Sometimes I run a patch down & out before loading, but most times, I don't - only if going hunting & with an oiled patch.

Dan has noted at least one of this rifle's bore gets 'grabby' when loading the first ball, unless the WD 40 is wiped out??

[bgf]

Do you do anything different with the WD-40 than on any of your other rifles (I'm assuming not)?  Try wiping the fouling out for the second shot and see what the second patch looks like after firing.  Except for the WD40 (which I don't think is the problem), fouling is the only difference between the first shot and the second, etc., that I can see.  I think 110gr will definitely produce fouling, and that may be enough to protect the patch from blowby.  Of course, I'm assuming you aren't wiping between shots already?

[Skychief]

Robby, I am stumped right along with ya.

Do you have anything besides WD-40 that you might use in it's stead (for experiment's sake)?

I don't want to come off as anti-WD-40.   I am not and have used it to good effect for years on my guns.

Let us know.......

Skychief.

[Habu]

Quick sidebar--both Daryl and Taylor have mentioned storing their guns muzzle down.  How are you storing them?  Some kind of rack or

[Hungry Horse]

Bob in the woods;

  The loose patch ball arrangement is the only one that seems to shoot accurately. I'm talking a .490 R.B. and a twelve thousandths greased patch. I suspect that the ball deforms enough to make the patch, and ball, grip the riflings. 

                     Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

I asked the question because I suspect you may have pitting or a slight enlargement  in the bore where the ball seats  Fouling keeps the patch safe after the first shot. What happens if you drop the charge down to 80 or so ?  [ ie seat the ball in a different spot ]  I debreached a friend"s rifle, and you could clearly see where the ball seated. We tried to polish the bore, but in the end, increasing the powder charge cured his patch problem. [ .45- wemt from 60 to 70 gr ]   You're at 110 gr so increasing may not be fun !! 

[Larry Pletcher]

I have a Rice .54 and have a different idea for you to consider. Normally I used a grease patch and wiped between shots. One day I tried a group of 10 using spit patches. The first patch was burnt. I wiped the barrel and the second patch was burnt as well. For shot 3 I did not wipe the barrel. The patch was good.i continued the group without wiping between shots.  By now I'm  thinking that the fouling is helping to protect the patch. When I finished firing the eighth shot with a string of good patches, I wonder if wiping the bore will change the shot placement. So, I wipe the barrel before loading the ninth shot.  And, I get a burnt patch. I loaded and fired the tenth without wiping and the last patch was good.

Every time I wiped the bore the next shot was burnt. Every time I didn't wipe the patch was good. ( All loads were spit patched.)

Regards,
Pletch

[BrownBear]

I'm wondering what bore preservative you're using between shoots, and whether you remove it before starting a shoot.  I've never had a misfire for failing to wipe out the bore with an alcohol swab, but I've experienced wandering first shots.  Swabbing cured the wanders. 

Never tracked down the patches for the first shot back then, but now you have me wondering.

[Daryl]

I find this thread quite interesting.  On our bush trail's first shooting station, where we usually foul our barrels, is the tie-breaker target board + the first pistol target, a fox silhouette hanging about 25 yards from the firing line.  You can walk down the path to the tie-breaker target board picking up our first shot patches and you will not find a burnt or shredded patch - they are all virtually re-usable. Most of the 'boys' use WD40 after drying their bores, as a final degreaser and storage 'oil'.  I've not used anytning different for over 30 years and have not rusted a bore or the outside of a gun in that time.  Some rifle's I've not used for over 10 years show no rust, anywhere.

At that first station, I have never noticed anyone wipe their bore out before loading and firing their first shot.

[Robby]

WOW, there's a lot to digest here. Thanks fellows. After reading Daryl and Leatherbellys shooting methods some years ago, I took it up and have been shooting happily ever since, no wiping between shots, and no problems loading and seating. Pletch, If I understand correctly, the fouling from the first shot may be acting as a firewall for the next loading? Okay, assuming that, what I will try is making an artificial fire wall for the first shot. I consider all my guns as hunting arms and while I may shoot a lot in any one range session, I place the greatest importance on the first shot, the only one that really counts for me. It is a fairly stout load, but where I hunt now it is not uncommon to come upon a shot out to 150 yards, and with this gun, I took a deer two years ago at 110 Yards, measured with a steel tape as I was out there measuring out some plantings I was doing the next spring. I'm trying to keep elevation guestimates to a minimum. I usually take notes because I use a lot of different guns and in looking through my notes i don't see where I have had this happen with any of them.
I store all my guns horizontally but will try putting them muzzle down for a day or so.
Bob, I'm 'very' particular about cleaning so I cannot believe there are any pits or enlargements, seems I would feel them when loading or cleaning.
The ticking is a new batch, but it is a very tightly woven and quality material. Lots to think about ant try, thank you.
Robby

[Hungry Horse]

Bob in the woods;

  The gun this gun replaced, was a CVA mountain rifle in 50 Cal., that I shot 17 lb. of powder through, before it just wouldn't group anymore. It was a 1 in 66" twist and I shot 60-65 grns. in it all its life. So, that is where I started with this gun. The barrel is a cut rifled barrel in 1 in 72' twist, that is as slick as an icy sidewalk. I used 15 thousandths ticking, and a .490 ball to start out, and got poor results. I actually haven't shot this gun much, because it didn't shoot well. It shoots pretty well with 90 grns. of three F but shoots tighter with a hundred. I tried .495 ball with the thin ticking, and was back to ground zero. It just eels to like a really loose load. I'm not complaining, I like not having to use or even bring a short starter. TTYL.

                      Hungry Horse

[Roger Fisher]

Bob in the woods;

  The gun this gun replaced, was a CVA mountain rifle in 50 Cal., that I shot 17 lb. of powder through, before it just wouldn't group anymore. It was a 1 in 66" twist and I shot 60-65 grns. in it all its life. So, that is where I started with this gun. The barrel is a cut rifled barrel in 1 in 72' twist, that is as slick as an icy sidewalk. I used 15 thousandths ticking, and a .490 ball to start out, and got poor results. I actually haven't shot this gun much, because it didn't shoot well. It shoots pretty well with 90 grns. of three F but shoots tighter with a hundred. I tried .495 ball with the thin ticking, and was back to ground zero. It just eels to like a really loose load. I'm not complaining, I like not having to use or even bring a short starter. TTYL.

                      Hungry Horse

If that rifle were mine I'd take her out again and shoot  .495 ball with a tight patch >018 or ..020 (spit) I'd bet the farm she will shoot tighter...groups.

[Daryl]

I really enjoy shooting competition against fellows who don't have to use a short starter.   It's a different story entirely,  shooting against Taylor, LB, Neil and Lennard as well as everone else we shoot with, who do have to use staters to get their combinations into the muzzles.

This is not to say that I don't enjoy tight competition, just that every time I see someone thumbing a patched ball into their muzzles, I have less to worry about as far as their accuracy is concerned when the shots get longer, smaller targets  or grouping is required.

Now, that isn't to say that H.Horse's rifle isn't as accurate with his combination as any of mine are with their's, just that that has been my experience thus far from 1972 tp present.

[Vomitus]

   Daryls, give up! Don't tell them anymore!   I can't wait to go stateside to a few competitions. Should be an eye opener,hehehe. I guess once the fouling fills the grooves, a 12 thou patch should work ok.
  Robby my friend. I think you might just as well live with it. It does seem weird all right but if it shoots good initially, no prob. Setting the woods on fire would be a concern with a smoldering patch though.

[Robby]

Leatherbelly, This is what I tell my wife when I take her out shooting on those hot, dry, late summer evenings. She puts up with a lot.

Robby

[Vomitus]

  Ink spots,to cool. Here's one back atcha.

[Eric Smith]

WD-40, no good for gun.

[Robby]

Smithy, There's a host of folk that would disagree with that statement.
Leatherbelly, Good one, brings back.........................
Robby

[Daryl]

Mr. Smith - That's quite a statement.

WD40 and other water-displacing lubricants were suggested to a friend of mine, back in 1977, via a personal letter from Holland and Holland which accomplanied a fine 1870's Westley Richards double rifle when it returned to Canada from them.  They refurbished and cased it for for him and sent the letter in answer to a question of his on cleaning. I have followed their 'orders' ever since and have spouted them off here, many times.  They suggested WD40 for dousing down the interior of the bores after drying from cleaning to list and remove all possible moisture from the bores, then to patch the substance out to a thin layer to leave as a protectant.  I've been using it ever since without EVER experiencing a negative result - that's now 25 years of use without any problems - every and complete satisfaction.

The only way a person might have problems, is if he didn't use enough of it, just as many people shoot patches that are too dry of suggested patch lubricants and blame that substance and not being a good enough lubricant.  I am in no way suggesting WD40 as a patch lube.

The letter Will showed me, was from the old and still vital Holland and Holland company, of England, makers of the highest quality of firearms the world over, for well over 1 1/2 centuries now, not from the American barrel company who has started using their name.

Considering H&H suggest it's use for firearms valued in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, I am suggesting your several hndred to several thousand dollar muzzleloader might be OK with it's use, if used as intended and suggested by those who enjoy it's wonderful traits.

A $27.00 gallon of it will last at least a couple years, maybe more depending on what you use it for.  Yes- ther are MUCH better lubricants, but there is only one other commerical 'product', in my opinon, that even approaches it's usefullness in moisture displacment and that's Amsoil MP (Metal Protector), which is the best moisture displacer I've seen. I hav enot seen the Amsoil product for years so have gone back to using WD40.