extreme opposite

[twotimer]

i have been shooting goex ffg powder for only a little while now.i have been shooting pyradex for a long time,my wife bought me a tompson center inline that i shot a couple of years,but that was not realy primitive enough for me.i then got a pedersoli long percussion rifle and a bounty model 50 caliber percussion pistol.as stated in another post i aqquired a nice rifle that was built in 79/80.its a half stock hawkens,w.m.large barrel 31 1/2" in length with a set of rollers triggers on it.to the question.i ordered some 8 once and 10 once denim.8 oz.measures .017,and 10 oz. measures .023 on the flats of my calipers,squeezed as hard as possible.accuracy "for me" is to be able to shoot a 5 shot group into a cloverleaf hole at 100 yards,which i have achieved already,and to shoot a 5 shot group into 3" at 200 yards.i have not shot past 100 yet.my problem is,with a .490 rb,or a .495.when i use the .017 thick patch material i get great accuracy  to 100 yards.when i use the thicker patchs my shots string out in a straight line or box up,and when i load past 80 grns of 2f i get a lot of sparks,flame out the end of the barrel.i have shot loads from 50 grns.,to 100 grns. 2f.i have not had the chance to try the 3f.i'm use a lube of water,alcohol,and neatsfoot oil,clean up with water,and use wd40 for final clean and storage.my question is why do's this rifle not like the tighter ball patch combo,and why the flame,sparks,after i go to 80+ grans.powder.thanks for all the info,help i have received since i joined this forum.you guys are a wealth of information.

[Frizzen]

Better hang onto that rifle. With the way you say you shoot, you would win hands down in the bench
matches at the Nationals at Friendship. They woudn't need their 40 lb. bench guns if they
had a gun that would shoot as good as yours. Good find.

[twotimer]

thanks frizzen,i shot modern guns in competition for years,ie,m14.m1 garand,built my own 308s and hand loaded for years,quit about 12 years ago and went to modern muzzle loaders.this is my second real black powder rifle.daryl has gave me a ton of help and info,but as to the question,why do's this rifle like the looser ball patch combo?? as for the spark,flame i assume from what i'v picked up reading on this site that maybe it has something to do with barrel length not being long enough to burn larger powder loads.i'm new to the coex ffg.i shoot off sand bags or a soft homemade roll on the front,no rear bags,can't do it off-hand any-more.ps,when i start working on a load for a given rifle,i start at minimum go up till i get a good combo then work in 2 tenths increments of powder back and forth,cut patches in different diameters.work on loads in 50 yard increments and keep records of temperature and humidity,wind reading and mirage is also critical.

[Standing Bear]

Your Wm Large barrel may have tighter than .500 land to land or slightly shallower grooves making your optimum ball patch combo actually tighter than appears on the surface.

I agree with Frizzen, clover leaf groups at 100 with iron sighted traditional MLs and patched RBs is way better than to be expected.
Regards,
TC

[axelp]

I shoot clover leafs all the time... yeah, just off the paper as my shots hit the clover growing around the backstop...

[zimmerstutzen]

My theory, is that there is no need for a palm bruising patch ball combination and the patch only need be tight enough to seal the bore.  Any tighter, only causes bruised palms and deformed balls.   

I have a few guns that do much better with combinations that can be started with far less effort.

For most rifling, once the patch and ball have been swaged into the rifling,  a heavy patch/ball combination is no tighter than a slightly thinner patch and ball combination. 

Pillow ticking is great stuff, but not the cure all for all types of rifling.

[Bob Roller]

When I was really active and interested in round ball shooting,I expected and got clover leaf groups at 100 yards with Bill Large's barrels and regular sights. I finished my first Hawken type in November of 1967 and tried it out at 100 yards on Thanksgiving Day and got several 5 shot clover leaf groups.The barrel was a .535 and I used a .531 ball of pure lead and about 120 grains of DuPont 3fg.Patching was blue striped pillow ticking.
I am so far out of practice now that I doubt if I could do it again. The last clover leaf 5 shot group I shot was back in 2003 with a copy of an Alex Henry long range rifle in caliber .451
With a calibrated tang peep sight and a 17A modified with windage adjustable base and a level.

Bob Roller

[alsask]

What do the tight patches look like after shooting?  It took quite a few rounds [and a bit of lapping] to smooth out my .54's and afterwards they liked a bit tighter patch.  Of course what I call tight others may find just snug.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

When I was really active and interested in round ball shooting,I expected and got clover leaf groups at 100 yards with Bill Large's barrels and regular sights. I finished my first Hawken type in November of 1967 and tried it out at 100 yards on Thanksgiving Day and got several 5 shot clover leaf groups.The barrel was a .535 and I used a .531 ball of pure lead and about 120 grains of DuPont 3fg.Patching was blue striped pillow ticking.
I am so far out of practice now that I doubt if I could do it again. The last clover leaf 5 shot group I shot was back in 2003 with a copy of an Alex Henry long range rifle in caliber .451
With a calibrated tang peep sight and a 17A modified with windage adjustable base and a level.

Bob Roller

That many shots with 120 grains in my .54 and I would be done for the year  ...Did you ever see an old man flinch??

[twotimer]

thanks guys.with my primitive measurements,without slugging the barrel,i'm getting from .497/.499 land to land.as for thicker patches after use,they could be used again,they have 8 uniform impressions around the inside perimeter from the lands.the crown has been smoothed down but i think i will work on it a little more with some emory cloth and a tapered dowel.bob,thanks for testifying.

[Kermit]

wow--
e. e. cummings
comes to
the alr forum

[Bob Roller]

This was a 1-1/8x34"inch barrel and the gun weighed about 12 pounds. Keep in mind that a 53 caliber round ball only weighs about 230 grains and I have a pistol in my pocket that fires a heavier bullet of 250 grains. The Alex Henry copy weighed about 10 pounds and used 75 grains of 3fg and a 475 grain bullet for 500 meters and the recoils was more noticeable than the round ball rifle.

Bob Roller

[Don Getz]

I had a little 45 cal. rifle that would literally shoot one big hole at 50 yards..............with the help of a 4 power Weaver
scope............Don

[Stormrider51]

The ballistics of a muzzleloading firearm aren't that hard to understand.  The variable factors include barrel length, volume of powder charge, rate of twist, depth of rifling, powder granulation (burn rate), projectile diameter, and patch thickness.  (Gee, I hope I got that right!  Feel free to correct me if I left something out.)

If I take a barrel of a given length/twist and start increasing the powder charge I will reach a point where unburned granules are blown out the muzzle to either burn in the open air as flash or simply fall to the ground unburned.  If I persist in increasing the powder charge it will be a case of "diminishing returns".  I will add more powder but gain little increase in velocity while experiencing an increase in muzzle flash and recoil.  (Any unburned powder adds to the mass of the ejecta and therefore increases recoil.)  I'll have exceeded the practical maximum charge for that rifle and patch/ball combo.  I'll also note that in my experience the max charge is  seldom the most accurate.

Now let's consider the rate of rifling twist and depth of grooves.  I'm going to use an extreme example here to make my point.  Let's consider shallow rifling and/or a loose patch/ball combo.  As we increase the powder charge we will reach a point where that rifling will no longer grip the projectile and cause it to rotate the same way from shot to shot.  It's called "stripping" and recovered patches will be torn, burned, or even shredded.  The result is an unstable bullet that will never provide any sort of accuracy.  The faster the twist and the shallower the rifling or the thinner the patch and smaller the ball the sooner you will hit this point where the rifling fails to grip the projectile.  The result is a shot where you might as well have used a smoothbore.  I'm not saying anything against smoothies but they did develop rifling for a reason.

So what is optimum?  Ask that question around the fire in a camp of muzzleloading fanatics and the result is likely to be spirited, to say the least.  I've heard everything from "you need to pound it down the bore" to "I only need two fingers to run the ball down".  Who is correct?  I think it's both, but only with their particular gun.  I've often said that "every shot from a muzzleloader is a handload" and this is very true.  The trick is to find the perfect balance between the barrel characteristics, powder granulation, powder charge, and ball size/patch thickness that grants the best accuracy from your particular gun.  It's part of the fun and challenge of muzzleloading.

Enjoy,
John   

[zimmerstutzen]

Storm rider,  I would only add, the configuration of the rifling.  Some has round bottom rifling with no discernable corners to the rifling.  Some rifling has grooves that are 5 to 7 times wider then the lands with rounded corners.  Some have grooves that are deeper at the corners than in the middle of the groove (Pope Style) and some has no real lands or grooves, but a series of swales that spiral down the bore Alexander Henry style). Some rifles have chokes near the muzzle.

A few modern round groove barrels actually look look like octagonal rifling with the grooves being the corners between sides. 

Then there is progressive rifling and gain twist. 

A choke bore requires a different style of patching than many guns.  The material needs to seal the bore even after being loaded through the choked part.  To an extent, obturation of the bullet on ignition helps fill the grooves from the breech to the choke.   So also pure lead is required, not a harder alloy ball.

[Roger Fisher]

I had a little 45 cal. rifle that would literally shoot one big hole at 50 yards..............with the help of a 4 power Weaver
scope............Don

Oh sure, so can I but I have to shoot most of a week  til it happens.....

[twotimer]

this rifle has a 1"x 31 1/2" barrel,the groves are only about 20 percent at the most wider than the lands,weight is 10 1/2 pounds.best accuracy is achieved with 68 to 76 grans. of goex ffg,depending on temperature,humidity.back when i used pyradex and shot 385 grans.maxi hunters,i got my best results out to 150 yards with a 85 to 95 grain charge.that was in a Thompson center that i was never able to get satisfaction from shooting round balls.my pedersoli with the 39" barrel do's a good job with 55 to 70 grain load of pyadex,depending on weather,but the pedersoli has never performed as well as this rifle with the w.m large barrel and roller trigereds.again,thanks to all you guys for your input,even you sceptics.regards,robert

[Pete G.]

I had a little 45 cal. rifle that would literally shoot one big hole at 50 yards..............with the help of a 4 power Weaver
scope............Don

Oh sure, so can I but I have to shoot most of a week  til it happens.....

I have a 50 cal. with primitive sights that will shoot one hole at 100 yds, but then the second shot goes somewhere else.

[Daryl]

What do the tight patches look like after shooting?  It took quite a few rounds [and a bit of lapping] to smooth out my .54's and afterwards they liked a bit tighter patch.  Of course what I call tight others may find just snug.

Good question!  The patches I use are in pristine condition after firing in all my guns. What I call pristine condition, means that with reapplying lube, they are suitable, generally for antoher 5 shots, each. The higher the speed and higher the muzzle blast, the greater fraying of the patch's outer edge, but it does not at all hurt the rifling bearing area- which is unharmed. That is with a load that when the math is done, shows .005" or more compression in the bottom of every groove.

It takes a lot more than a simply snug combination to hurt my meat hooks. For instance, my .690" (14) bore rifle really likes a .682"(actual measure) with a .030" patch in it's .012" rifling. That's .014" compression in the bottom of the grooves. It also uses a staight WW ball of .675" diameter with the same patch - .0105" compression (10 1/2 thousandths) in each groove. Even thought that ball is quite hard as cast, it is still easily loaded with the starter and the rifle's original hickory rod, same as the larger pure lead ball. I've been using that same tapered rod that's 3/8" to 7/16" for 26 years and some 3,000 to 4,000 shots.

I tried some of the smaller harder balls at 200yards and they only gave up about 1" to the larger, soft ball and heavy patch. That 1" could easily have been shooter error as there is little difference between 2 1/2" and 3 1/2" at 200yards when using wide V Express sigths with a bead.
CandleSnuffer's target is a good one for 200yard shooting.

[plastikosmd]

I have a 50 cal. with primitive sights that will shoot one hole at 100 yds, but then the second shot goes somewhere else.


Lol, love that one