Siler Locks and iron furniture

[River Jordan]

I am new here and have enjoyed learning as much as I can. I have also had the good fortune to visit Tip Curtis and have picked his brain a time or two.

Regarding the pointed "tail " of a Siler lock and in deference to the accepted wisdom that most "Southern style rifles"
would have an English lock I am a bit puzzled. I realize that there is no evidence of Germanic Locks on Southern rifles

SO....

First  --what time period do Southern iron mounted rifles occur? post 1800?

Second-- would a Germanic style lock have appeared with iron furniture as made in perhaps Pennsylvania and carried South to appear in the Transylvania Region or what was to become East TN?
This would be 1760-1796 time period.

As an East Tennessean who grew up in Sullivan County I can attest to the fact that even though we have a rich Scots Irish heritage, there is a rich tradition of Pennsylvania influence in furtinure and Fabric trades such as quilting etc.
I think furniture makers here were highly influenced by Pennsyvania Germans and in fact many Pennsylvanians migrated here

 

[G-Man]

I think this discussion,and the other thread from a few days ago, would be helped by focusing our discussion to specific regions and timeframes so I will try to do that.  I think this is something we really need to do when discussing southern longrifles.

We know that iron mounted longrifles were in use in the south by the start of the Revolution as one of William Campbell's men had one stolen in Williamsburg in January of 1776. 

Where was that rifle made?  We don't know that, but in my opinion I believe iron mounts were being made and used on longrifles being made in the southern end of the  Shenandoah Valley area - up near what is now Rockbridge County, in that timeframe. They also seem to have been in use in the North Carolina piedmont before 1790 and I suspect they were making them by the time of the Revolution there as well.

Southern rifles is a broad term.  I think that what most of the guys were saying on the other thread is that a Siler style lock is not something you would expect to find on a post 1800 Appalachian rifle.  And by about the 1790s English styled locks were pretty ubiquitous on work from the Shenandoah Valley and the Carolina piedmont as well.  However, if we narrow the discussion more focused areas - the Shenadoah Valley prior to about 1790, I would not be surprised to find a continental (Siler styled) lock on a rifle from the shop of someone like Simon Lauck or John Haymaker.  I know we have to be careful about possible reconversions and I may be wrong but at least one of the surviving John Davidson rilfes looks to me to have a Germanic styled lock, at least from what I can see in the photos?  And then there are those other early guns - the brass barreled rifle, RCA 42.

I guess what I am getting at is that in what we think of as the Colonial and Revolutionary periods there are some examples of brass mounted guns with Germanic styled locks from areas where some (myself being one of them) suspect they were also making iron mounts.  So personally I would have no problem making up a "Concept gun" with such a lock, but I would keep the styling within the timeframe and area of the brass examples from that shop in that same era.  On the other hand, if you are extremely focused on not wanting to have anything for which you can't point to a surviving documented signed and dated piece to copy, then perhaps the English lock is a safer choice. 

Good luck and have fun with your project

Guy

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

In GA I have seen records of English trade guns being sold to the settlers and Indians long before the revolution. I have also seen records of Swiss and Moravians settling in SC and having gunsmiths.... Savannah and Augusta had gunsmiths before the revolution.....The French penetrated the area from the west and the Spanish from the South.  So we might have seen a complex collection of guns and parts.........So a Germanic lock might appear, but the predominant influence seems to have been English.  Some of the builders from East Tenn and NC did migrate into GA as well.... Wayne Elliot may be able to add more to this discussion, I hope!! 

[James Rogers]

I agreewith Guy that time frames and regions sometimes get compiled into lump sum statements. Very easy to converse on known and accepted traits of 19th century guns only to find the context is really about pre. rev. Then in a week on another forum, those traits are being accepted as dogmatic facts on much older guns. In reality all one has for these older guns is speculation. Last time I checked it  is hard enough to find  any American made gun with solid provenance to those early dates.
 In my mind, it is best to go with the preponderance of the evidence in situations where you have known like later southron pieces.

Here are a couple of early quotes for iron guns. Where they were made is unknown but  the 1776 quote would give me cause to set a loose historical foundation for a Virginia made fantasy piece.

The South-Carolina GAZETTE

June 12, 1755

CHARLES-TOWN

Berkley, County, Seluda ff.

.... where being known and challenged, David Dundass, instantly made his escape, leaving a smooth bor'd gun, iron mountings, and well fix'd, near four feet in the barrel.


THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE 3

January 12, 1776

WILLIAMSBURG

ON the 6th of this instant was stolen, from a soldier of my company, a RIFLE GUN , her stock made of persimmon tree, iron mounted, has a pistol lock, the box lid lost, and her bore very small.

[G-Man]

The second quote that James posted (the one from the Virginia Gazette) is the one posted by Col. Campbell regarding the stolen rifle.  If I am not mistaken most of his rifle troops were raised in the backcountry south and west from Augusta County. Not that that means the rifle was made there, but it suggests some interesting possibilities.

We also have to keep in mind that the Shenandoah Valley riflemakers in the early period had a lot of German names and a strong German cultural influence in the region, and many of these early settlers migrated out into southwest  Virginia (Honakers), North Carolina, and even over into Tennessee.  But overall I suspect that riflemakers  in the 18th century southern backcountry (and that is where the rifle making was focused) used what was available based on the trade into the region and what would best allow them to turn a profit along with the traders and middlemen along the way, and if there was a choice probably what they were used to using where they learned - moreso than any old cultural sentiments or loyalty to one country's good  vs. another.   I am sure the supply chain and trade routes varied a lot depending on many factors in the 100+ year historic era of southern riflemaking but English goods obviously dominating as the trade was controlled from the coast and middlemen in places like Winchester, Salisbury and Augusta GA.

[Number19]

Adding to Guy's comments, this past week I did a quick ( very quick) breakdown on Shenandoah gunsmiths who were in the prime of their careers during the Revolutionary War era. Using Whisker's book, from Frederick County ( Winchester) I found 8 gunsmiths at work; and in Berkeley County, 4 gunsmiths. I probably overlooked some.

Philip Sheetz, patriarch of the famous Sheetz family of gunsmiths, was apprenticed in the York school. Simon Lauck, Sr, from Winchester and patriarch of another gunsmith family, was apprenticed in the Lancaster School. Over in the Brock's Gap area of Rockingham County, Conrad Humble may have apprenticed in the Bucks County school. What must be realized is that The Lower Valley was closer to York than it was to Baltimore or the towns of coastal Virginia and the Great Wagon Road, running south out of Pennsylania, was one of the primary immigration and trade hiways of the colonial period. Winchester, in particular, seems to have had an extremely important rifle making industry, with a strong Germanic influence.

[Don Tripp]

We also have to keep in mind that the Shenandoah Valley riflemakers in the early period had a lot of German names and a strong German cultural influence in the region, and many of these early settlers migrated out into southwest  Virginia (Honakers), North Carolina, and even over into Tennessee.

The names Sheetz and Lauck sure have a Germanic ring to them, at least to my ear. Also consider how often the edelweiss turns up in some form of decorative element on guns made in the south. Edelweiss is an alpine flower, it doesn't grow in England (at least not naturally).

[rich pierce]

The first question is whether one is interested in building a Southern rifle based on known examples with strong provenance of date and region of manufacture and how early that is.  The earlier the date the less likely that regional characteristics are well developed.  Next question is what is meant by iron furniture?  Iron mounts recycled off an early musket, trade gun or fowler? Or locally forged mounts?  Simply back dating later Southern styles with a broader buttate and assuming grease holes etc must have been used in the 1770s is one approach. But keep in mind that a period Southern newspaper citing an iron mounted rifle does not mean for sure the gun was made in the colonies.

[James Rogers]

The first question is whether one is interested in building a Southern rifle based on known examples with strong provenance of date and region of manufacture and how early that is.  The earlier the date the less likely that regional characteristics are well developed.  Next question is what is meant by iron furniture?  Iron mounts recycled off an early musket, trade gun or fowler? Or locally forged mounts?  Simply back dating later Southern styles with a broader buttate and assuming grease holes etc must have been used in the 1770s is one approach. But keep in mind that a period Southern newspaper citing an iron mounted rifle does not mean for sure the gun was made in the colonies.

Absolutely.
And the earlier you go from say the revolution I think the more your last sentence will hold true.

[heinz]

And where would we think this rifle gun was made if not in the colonies:

"ON the 6th of this instant was stolen, from a soldier of my company, a RIFLE GUN , her stock made of persimmon tree, iron mounted, has a pistol lock, the box lid lost, and her bore very small."

A pre 1776 small bored rifle wit a persimmon stock would probably not come from anywhere but the US even if it was brass mounted.

[James Rogers]

And where would we think this rifle gun was made if not in the colonies:

"ON the 6th of this instant was stolen, from a soldier of my company, a RIFLE GUN , her stock made of persimmon tree, iron mounted, has a pistol lock, the box lid lost, and her bore very small."

A pre 1776 small bored rifle wit a persimmon stock would probably not come from anywhere but the US even if it was brass mounted.

As previously stated its enough for me to be inspired for a VA made iron mounted fantasy gun. That patticular quote certainly lends itself to suggest local stocking at the very least.

[rich pierce]

No doubt stocked in the colonies. No data on where the furniture was made. Wallace Guslers muzzle blasts articles are a good source for those pursuing the elusive 1770s iron mounted (locally forged mounts) Southern rifle.

[Pete G.]

We also have to keep in mind that the Shenandoah Valley riflemakers in the early period had a lot of German names and a strong German cultural influence in the region, and many of these early settlers migrated out into southwest Virginia (Honakers), North Carolina, and even over into Tennessee.

The names Sheetz and Lauck sure have a Germanic ring to them, at least to my ear. Also consider how often the edelweiss turns up in some form of decorative element on guns made in the south. Edelweiss is an alpine flower, it doesn't grow in England (at least not naturally).

You are correct. Edelweiss is Swiss/Austrian. Although the gunsmiths of the upper valley were of a Germanic culture, I suspect by that time the locks were more of what was available for use, rather than chosen for a particular style. Ketland was apparently more prolific than most at exporting locks, hence the "English" style was used more often by that time. I have yet to see what is sold today as an Early Virginia style rifle in any of my reference works. Not to say that they are not out there, but the iron mounted, captured patchbox with a colonial English lock certainly wasn't common. I think that a lot of what gets called a southern rifle really means "not Pennsylvania".
 There are certain characteristics of the valley guns, but by the time they were being built, there was more travel and less isolation of the various schools. That would explain why a lot of the Virginia guns are similar to some of the western Pennsylvania guns of the time.