mapp gas

[chuck c.]

Will a bottle type mapp gas torch generate enough heat to forge small items such as a trigger guard and butt plate? Can it be used to copper braze?

[Ken G]

Hi Chuck,
I've made trigger guards and buttplates using only mapp gas.  I have one Mapp gas bottle and one propane bottle and sometimes use the 2 at one time.  The two together will generate a good bit of heat but no where near what is needed for brazing copper or brass.  You'll need one of those small Oxy/Mapp set ups they sell at home depot for that.  Be advised you will go through the little Oxy bottles pretty quick and they are pricey. 
Cheers,
Ken

[northmn]

I use a Mapp gas torch to braze thin metal and small pieces like sights regularly.  It also has adequate heat for tempering frizzens and springs.  Its also handy for heating and bending.  I use a 3/32 fluxed braze rod and a little patience.  I could make a trigger guard using Mapp.  Real good for higher temp silver solders which might be a better use than brazing.

DP 

[J Smith]

Chuck,
  In Wayne Goddard's $ 50.00 Knife shop book, it shows you how to make a small forge with a propane or mapp gas torch. I have used this before, forging small blades and other parts and it works well. As far as copper brazing, it can be done on small pieces, but it just takes a long time to get the material hot enough all across the joint to be able to do it.
Listed below, is the link to Wayne's book. I have a copy that I picked up at my local Barnes and Noble Book Store. If you want to look at the book first, I think I also saw it at Borders or Books-A-Million also.

James


http://www.krausebooks.com/product/719/97

[Acer Saccharum]

Barbeque grill, charcoal and a hair dryer can generate the heat you need. Don't try this inside, tho'

[davec2]

About 30 years ago, I needed to melt a lot of silver and other non ferrous metals.  I built this little furnace out of the bottom of a grease drum welded to a thin steel plate.  It is lined with about 2 1/2 inches of refractory cement (available from McMaster Carr and other places).  It took one 50 pound bag to line the furnace.  At first, I ran it on propane, but I got tired of changing the bottles.  So I put a "T" in the gas line running to my water heater.  The natural gas is supplied at 1/2 psi.  I have a variable speed blower and a hair dryer hooked up to supply more or less air.  With a little scrounging, I helped a friend build one of these recently for about $100.  I put it on casters so it can be pushed out of the way when not in use.  It will get to a little over 2200 degrees F - plenty to melt gold, silver, brass, copper, etc., to casting temperatures.  I have brazed in it and used it for heating parts for forging.  (Not hot enough to forge weld though).  I also use it for annealing and heat treating of larger parts.  The inside is about 10 inches in diameter and is a foot deep.  Easy to build, but sounds like a jet engine when it's running!

[George F.]

Using a 50's term..."That is cool!"

[northwoodsdave]

I was going to second Acer's simple recommendation of a temporary charcoal forge, but then I saw Davec2's furnace.  My response is more 80's Valley Girl:  That is WAY cool!

A forge setup would be easier and faster,  but that furnace would be a great addition to any metal shop. 

Darn, yet another project for the growing list....


David L

[chuck c.]

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I'll keep on plugging along. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting the metal hot enough, Ive had a couple of attempts here the metal cracked when I tried to get it thin. I had another that was going real well, then it broke when I was trying to bend it. I originally wanted a small coal forge, but coal is hard to come by in South Texas. Has anyone had any experience with the small single burner gas forges? I'm thinking small because right now cost is a factor. Building something would probably be the best route, but I don't have a torch or welder and no experience with either. I'll probably give the charcoal and BBQ pit a try. When you say charcoal, I'm assuming that you aren't talking about Kingsford. Maybe some good old mesquite coals would work.

[Benedict]

I have seen demonstrations of "coffee can forges" that are use a standard propane torch and do a surprisingly good job.  It certainly seems that they get hot enough to forge trigger guards and butt plates but maybe not hot enough to weld.

This link shows one of the but there are others.

http://www.paragoncode.com/shop/micro_forge/

Good luck,

Bruce

[Ken G]

Chuck,
I have a pile of broken parts in the corner so feel you pain and know where you are at.  I started with propane, added mapp. Added the Mapp/OXY set up for brazing buttplates.  I also have a small single burner camp stove I have used for heating parts and or adding to the heat.  I've used the charcoal B-B-Q set up.  Kingsford works, just hit it with some air and see how hot she'll get. Anything that produces heat.  It all works, it's just slower process heating the parts than a coal forge. Eventually you might want to make yourself a small forge but you can get by without one for a project or two.    
http://www.paragoncode.com/shop/micro_forge/

You need your part red hot before bending or flattening or you risk it breaking or stressing the metal where it will snap the first time you try to bend it a little. Always let the part you've heating cool slowly to help keep it from being brittle.  

[Dphariss]

Will a bottle type mapp gas torch generate enough heat to forge small items such as a trigger guard and butt plate? Can it be used to copper braze?

No. to #1
#2 probably yes.
If you want to  make a buttplate you need a forge. Anything else is a big PITA.
I bought a small propane forge off e-Bay that works well.

If you can get good coal a coal forge is not that hard to make.

Dan

[Benedict]

Here is another link for mini forges:

http://www.zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html

Bruce

[Rich]

The website posed by benedict is good. I built a coffee can forge and coated the interior with ITC100. I was able to forge a tennesse triggerguard and buttplate in it. Both were rivited and brass brazed together. The brazing was done with mapp gas. The forge was not used for the brazing but could have been. The brass I used were the tiny pieced of sheet brass that I saved from other projects. Borax for flux. The forge was also used to case harden the lock using Kasenett. I blocked the plate so it would not warp in the forge and followed the directions on the can.

[Ian Pratt]

Chuck, you can make a serviceable, low buck coal / charcoal forge, using anything roughly bowl shaped for the pan, can be the already mentioned bbq grill. cut off bottom of a water heater, car or truck rim etc. Line it with a wet clay made of dirt and wood ashes. You can use a hair dryer for your air source, connect it with a piece of pipe to keep the dryer away from the heat. don't use to big a diameter of pipe or you may lose air pressure. 
  You can get by with digging a shallow hole in the ground , run your air pipe to the bottom of the hole and build your fire on top. It works.  Really you can make your fire pot out of a wooden crate as long as you line it thick with your clay mixture.
   There are places that will ship you blacksmith coal by UPS in 50 lb sacks, there are several up around this part of the country but may be some closer to you, if you search on the web for blacksmith coal you may find some closer. Also look for ABANA web sites or other blacksmith organizations in your part of the country, they know where the coal is. You may even find people close to home who might be able to help you get started with forging.

[Dphariss]

Chuck, you can make a serviceable, low buck coal / charcoal forge, using anything roughly bowl shaped for the pan, can be the already mentioned bbq grill. cut off bottom of a water heater, car or truck rim etc. Line it with a wet clay made of dirt and wood ashes. You can use a hair dryer for your air source, connect it with a piece of pipe to keep the dryer away from the heat. don't use to big a diameter of pipe or you may lose air pressure. 
  You can get by with digging a shallow hole in the ground , run your air pipe to the bottom of the hole and build your fire on top. It works.  Really you can make your fire pot out of a wooden crate as long as you line it thick with your clay mixture.
   There are places that will ship you blacksmith coal by UPS in 50 lb sacks, there are several up around this part of the country but may be some closer to you, if you search on the web for blacksmith coal you may find some closer. Also look for ABANA web sites or other blacksmith organizations in your part of the country, they know where the coal is. You may even find people close to home who might be able to help you get started with forging.

Brake drums work for coal forges.

Dan

[44-henry]

Dave, neat furnace; however, if I were you I would where a face shield, apron, and leggings when doing that stuff.

[Dale Halterman]

The link posted by Bruce states that the coffee can forge can be used for heat treating. Has anyone ever used one of these for hardening small parts, say frizzens or tumblers?

Dale H

[davec2]

44 Henry,

Point well taken.  However, on the other hand, I used to ride / work on a cattle ranch as a boy but never wanted to follow the U.S. Government guidelines for cowboy safety either.

[AeroE]

Your local blacksmithing organization will have local sources of coal.  In Missouri, BAM has a map and contacts for members distributed around the state that have blacksmithing coal.  The best place to start looking for a local or state club is from the ABANA web site.  Or just type the name of your state plus blacksmithing into a Google search window.

I really like the propane forges.  There are probaby a dozen makers around the US, or it's easy enough to make one, either from scratch, by buying a burner that is ready to go, or a kit of parts that you can assemble.  An idle valve saves fuel and keeps the forge hot when occupied by some task on the side.

I think Goddard's book is worth the price.  I saw a new book about knife making last night that expands on the idea of the one brick forge, although I don't recall the title; I may go back to buy the book the next time I'm close by.

An interesting primitive forge can be made from a piece of stove pipe or similar salvage hung vertically with a coffee can pinned at the bottom.  The can has a hole in the side for the part in work and the wirre pin makes it easy to remove from the flue.  Whether you hang it in a tree or not depends.

[Chuck Burrows]

The link posted by Bruce states that the coffee can forge can be used for heat treating. Has anyone ever used one of these for hardening small parts, say frizzens or tumblers?
Dale H

Yes and they work great - I can get mine hot enough (even at 6,500 ft above sea level where the oxygen is thin) to forge weld mild steel - for that I need two torches though. Even the little one brick forges will get hot enough to heat treat a small knife blade, so frizzens or tumblers would be no problemo using either forge........you can also set either of these up to use two torches rather than one.

Nice thing is I can use them inside in the winter without getting my small work room overly heated - right now outside it's 20° with 30-40 knot winds so it's extra nice  ........

With Mapp I can also braze, both brass and silver - but I use firebrick as a surround to keep the heat concentrated and sometimes use two torches. With the right tip Mapp will produce heat up to around 3200° F

Here's plan for a really neat home made small blown forge.. http://www.rayrogers.com/miniforge.htm

[chuck c.]

Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice and information. You've been very helpful! Great site-Good people!

[Carper]

I will bet that I burnt up 20 or so buttplates trying to copper braze them in a forge. If you are using mild steel for your furniture(as most do) please dont even try it in the forge. The E.Tenn style furniture is made from unusually thin stuff and it is so easy to burn a blister on mild steel at the temp that copper melts. You have wasted a lot of work when this happens. Ken is right on about the little oxygen/propane torches that you can get for 50 or so. Even that little flame you will have to be careful, rivet the two pieces tightly together,with clean edges(  you cant fill in a crack much with the copper) use a lenth of copper wire to braze  the fluxed joint with. When you brown it you cant see the copper like you would a brass rod. If you must use the forge to braze try using wrought iron for the material and you will like it lot better. The first thing that I look for on homemade guns is the braze line on butts or triggerguards, you will too. BTW a lot of the first triggerguards that I made were two piece that I riveted the rail to the bow and just soft soldered them together, that are still together!   I congradulate you on trying to make you own.  Johnny

[Rich]

The coffee can forge gets hot enough to case harden. The problem is that the working area of the forge is only 4 inches in diameter and space has to be left for the tourch flame. You can't get enought charcoal around a part to color case harden. The only solution I could come up with is to case harden with Kasenit rather than charcoal. Did a lock plate a couple of weeks ago for the first time. It worked.