Saw blues

[Eric Smith]

Once again, I am having trouble cutting a square line on a stock blank. Had the barrel inletted just about like it should be. Then I went and cut the bottom line to inlet the ramrod channel, BOOM,  saw canted again. Squared it up with a rasp but left so little room for a ramrod channel.  I hate to admit it but I am thinking a band saw might help. Anyone else been through this  frustration? This is my first build with a blank.

[Rich]

My method is to mount the stock vertically in a vise. I use a dovetail saw to start the cut, making sure that it is square both vertically and horizontally. You really have to do this part accurately because your saw will continue and magnify any canting you start with. I then switch to the hand saw. I check often to make sure the saw isn't canting. I use a caliper to do that. With the saw in the cut, I check the distance to the edge of the stock. I then can hold the caliper to the back side against the saw blade to know which way I am canting. Once you are past the width of the saw blade, a small wedge can be put at the top of the cut. This will allow adjustment of the cut. If it cannot be adjusted enough, cut off the waste and restart the cut. I have two handsaws. One is a craftsman general duty saw. It has a fairly heavy blade. My main saw is a Garlik lynx. It has a tapered blade from the teeth to the back edge. It has 4 1/2 teeth per inch. While a bandsaw would be easier, I keep telling myself that I'm learning how to use a hand saw. Another handsawing technique is to look at the reflection of the wood on the saw blade. If the reflection and the wood form a straight line, you're square.

[Elnathan]

Draw the line you want to cut to on both sides of the stock and across the end. Then start sawing as usual, holding the saw at an angle (ie., not perpendicular to the stock, but at a 45 degree angle or so). When you get about two-thirds of the way through, flip the stock over and start sawing from the opposite direction. At that  point the two cuts should meet about in the middle of the stock, leaving a sort of triangle of wood deep down inside the cut. Some people then hold the saw perpendicular and cut away that little triangle, but I have always found that unnecessary, and just keep cutting from alternate sides.

The trick is to never cut so far on one side that you erase the cut started on the other side - there should always be two separate cuts intersecting within the wood. That way the saw is cutting only on the side where you can watch it, and is guided by the kerf cut into the wood on the opposite side. If the saw starts drifting from the line, hold the saw as close to parallel with the wood as you can, and bend it slightly in the direction you wish it to go - don't twist it! I pretty much cut everything this way, and have found it very precise - the hardest part is drawing the lines correctly.

I recommend this book, BTW: http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Tools-Their-Ways-Workings/dp/0393322769/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1341795459&sr=1-1&keywords=using+hand+tools

Edited to add: A picture is worth a thousand words, and here is a website with several -
http://www.hyperkitten.com/woodworking/resaw.php
I just work from one side, rather than from all four corners as this fellow does, but the basic principle is the same. You don't need a frame saw, either.

I am sorry I didn't post this earlier - I saw your posts about your earlier woes, but by the time I read them you had already finish and it didn't occur to me that you still had sawing to do.

[James]

One thing I've not seen mentioned is that the saw needs to be sharpened right even if it is a new saw. Regardless of the maker, I have found a good sharpening will help any new wood cutting tool.

[Mike Brooks]

I use a big craftsman band saw I bought at an auction for $10.

[bama]

You can cut a stock out of square with a band saw just as easy if not easier than with a hand saw. Ask me how I know.

You have to pay close attention to what you are doing period when you are cutting out a stock reguardless of the method.

The good thing is you have the wood and it can be glued back on and then recut, again ask me how I know.

All is not lost my friend, you just added another learning cycle to your building experiance.

[bluenoser]

Ditto Elnathan's reply.

I suggest you check the teeth on your saw.  It is not unusual to find dull teeth on only one side.  If the teeth on one side are dull, the saw will tend to pull to one side.  I can't recall if it is toward or away from the dull side.

Laurie

[deano]

Maybe time to just dump the saw and just get a big Surform?

[Acer Saccharum]

Oh, dear, Eric, so sorry to hear of your frustration. It can be super-maddening.

Step back for a bit, and re-evaluate where you are before you do any more work.
 
T

[bluenoser]

Maybe time to just dump the saw and just get a big Surform?

   Wouldn't the kerf be a little on the wide side? 

[Eric Smith]

Step back for a bit, and re-evaluate where you are before you do any more work.
 
T
[/quote]

Good Advice!

[P.W.Berkuta]

All the saws you use need to be tuned up -- even a band saw - there is a book out on the market (forgot the name) that details how to tune up and use a band saw it is well worth reading if you use a band saw. If you like to use a hand saw be my guest just don't get a heart attack from using it .

[rich pierce]

It's hard to go slow and check on things every second.  There's a big temptation to try to be "efficient" before ones experience catches up with our expectations.

In general it is important to keep things level and plumb when working with hand tools as that seems to help our eyes and natural balance keep things square.  You might try sawing the stock while it is vertical.  That is the only thing that works for me.  Hang a mirror on the wall opposite you so you can see if you are on the line on the other (blind) side of the stock.

[Acer Saccharum]

Do you get lost looking at your developing muscles in the mirror? (like my teenage son does)

Or do you watch the saw, and see if the image and the saw are in the same line?

That is a brilliant concept, Rich.

[bluenoser]

Hang a mirror on the wall opposite you so you can see if you are on the line on the other (blind) side of the stock.

Rich

That is a very good  piece of advice!

I have been building cabinets and doing general woodwork for over 40 years and that has never occurred to me.

Thanks
Laurie

[Eric Smith]

Here is a picture of the work. I don't know if it is salvageable. Really thin beyond the forestock. I think I'll take a few days to do some measuring and thinking.

[rich pierce]

Measure the distance between the bottom of the barrel channel and the bottom of the forestock at each point to get the wood thickness.  Hopefully enough for a web and to hide 40% of the ramrod in a groove.

[Acer Saccharum]

You can even live comfortably with 33% 'in the groove', less if you have to. I would try to salvage this project.

Measure over the barrel and wood, then compare that to the barrel thickness. The leftover is your remaining wood. You'll need 1/8 MIN for a web between bbl and rod, and then 1/8 MIN for a rr channel. That's 1/4", which is absolute minimum, scary thin. (calculations are for a 3/8 rod) Any more than that, consider yourself a lucky man.

If you have less than that, make a half stock, and use a wooden rib. That can be a sweet look.

You must realize, for (almost) every gun problem, there is a fix. So first establish where you are, then you can decide what your options are.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

THanks for shairng your experience.  I am doing my first build from a blank and have access to a ban saw, but want to use a hand saw.  This way we can all learn from the experience.

Coryjoe

[Ephraim]

 You know you are a gun builder when you can hide your mistakes.
 Take your time and think it out it will come to you.
Ephraim

[Long John]

Eric,

I can't be sure without measuring but from the picture it looks like there might be enough wood left.  I just measured from the top edge to the bottom edge of the forestock on this rifle.



It is 3/4ths of an inch.  The ramrod is 7/16ths in diameter. If you go to a 3/8ths diameter ramrod and decide to make the groove only as deep as 1/3 that depth you could get away with 5/8ths of an inch.  There isn't a ruler in your picture but it sure looks like you have 5/8ths of an inch.

Remember: Adapt, Improvise, Overcome!

Keep in mind a couple of things.  First, there is usually a molding running along the side of the stock.  That molding is usually about 2/3 of the way down from the top edge.  But you could put it a little higher or lower to hide the glue line if you elected to glue the cut off wood back on and re-saw.  It is doubtful that the cut off will fit right proper as cut.  You will have to plane both surfaces perfectly flat or add wood strips AFTER you have gotten further along.

Take the dog for a walk, explain your options to him and by the time you get back to the shop you will have a plan.  If you don't have a dog, borrow one!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for all the tips and advice. I will press on with this build and keep you posted.

[Tom Currie]

Once you whittle off some wood from the upper forestock your slim lower will look less skinny. My latest build has 3/4" total top to bottom on the lower forestock as Long John's does. Looks like you've got that much there.

Your aggressiveness with your saw is forcing you up the learning curve. 

Good advice from all above.

Being scared is part of the process.

[DB]

This is a very interesting post. I was considering trying my hand at building with a blank at some point, using a hand saw. A band saw would be infinatley helpfull to create a square cut,

[Long John]

DB,

I've done it both ways.  A band saw enables you to totally screw-up in about 1 second whereas with a hand saw it takes much longer, giving you some time to notice that something ain't right and make a correction.

I hate pre-carves and do most of my work from a blank.  I use a little Delta 8" table top band saw to do a rough profile of the rifle to shed some weight off the blank, but all of my precise cutting is with a hand saw of one sort or another.  I am not a professional - just a hobby builder so I am not going hungry while I work-up all that elbow-grease.

A good, sharp, properly set hand saw is an enormous asset.  There are techniques for using all tools and learning good sawing technique is one of the steps of becoming a gun-maker.  Just remember the faster I work the longer it takes me to finish.  With speed comes errors and those are hard and time-consuming to fix.

Best Regards,

John Cholin