Author Topic: percussion caps - center fire??  (Read 10099 times)

zimmerstutzen

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percussion caps - center fire??
« on: July 31, 2012, 03:36:42 AM »
I recently took notice that nearly all American made percussion caps from 1850 to about 1970 were labeled "Center Fire"    UMC, Remington, Winchester, Goldmark's, Hick's all labeled them center fire.

Does any one know why?







   

Jim Thomas

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »
I have an old tin and if I read the maker correctly it was made by The Union Metalic Cartridge Co.    Bridgeport Conn.    The tin reads "Central Fire".

Hey! It looks just like the one in the bottom left. Except mine reads FC instead of UMC. ??  
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 07:00:52 PM by Jim Thomas »

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 09:09:32 PM »
I always assumed this was to differientiate from rim fire and to indicate that the flame was then centered in the nipple . . . but ??????????
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

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Offline Canute Rex

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 10:53:51 PM »
Speculation alert, but here's an idea.

The hollow cup shaped percussion cap as we know it was only the latest in a series of percussion ignition designs. There were pellets, tapes, and tubes. The pellets sometimes fit in the hollow-nosed hammer and sometimes in a cup much like a flint pan. The tubes were tiny copper tubes filled with fulminate of mercury and were stuck into what looked like an open ended flintlock pan.  One end of the tube stuck into the vent and the pointed hammer hit the tube in the middle.

Perhaps the center fire designation was to differentiate between these older types of percussion ignition and the cup type, which fired from the center down the nipple.


zimmerstutzen

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 02:26:40 AM »
The remington tin in the first post was purchased by me about 1970.
It still has half of the caps and they look the same.

I thought remmie caps are still foil lined.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 02:34:59 AM »
The remington tin in the first post was purchased by me about 1970.
It still has half of the caps and they look the same.

I thought remmie caps are still foil lined.
I think they got wind of the foil falling out ::)

Daryl

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 03:23:17 AM »
I bought Remington caps last year, and they are still foil lined, but the entire priming fell our ot a good 1/2 dozen in the tin. Before putting them on the gun's nipples, I had to check to make sure they had priming, each time.  I do not like Remington caps - I do however really like RWS caps and CCI's are OK, too. I've never had an issue with either of them.

Jim Thomas

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 03:44:41 AM »
Found this thread that may give some avenues to explore:

http://www.jouster.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-4446.html

And here's a picture of a tin of center fire caps with some of its original caps.   

The interior of these caps looks quite different from a garden variety No 11 CCI cap of today.  Looks almost like a metallic primer housed inside a copper nipple-diameter shell.     

The container I have contains caps that look like those in link referenced.     

zimmerstutzen

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2012, 04:46:42 AM »
BTW SC Loyalist, you hae several stray caps in that tin.  UMC and Remmie caps were all ridged  You have at least 6 that are not ridged.

Goldmark IIRC was a hungarian who discovered the ignition properties of red phosphorus.  He recieved one of many patents for percussion  caps.   Goldmark was eventually purchased by Winchester, which was in turn purchased by Western Powder.  In 1935, Winchester and Western became divisions of Olin Industries.  Stoeger's sold Goldmarks caps in their 1947 cat.  The 1952 cat indicates that percussion caps were unavailable.    So, the picture below dates the caps as manufactured after 1935.  I would think that by 1935, the Winchester Western Olin companies would know the difference between primers and percussion caps.




They are definitely not Berdan caps which are slightly wider in diameter and only half as deep.  I have reloaded some original 43 Spanish cases with Berdan primers.   They are nearly 2x's the diameter.  Regular boxer primers have an integral anvil pressed within the tiny cup.  Berdan cartridge cases have a wider hole for the primer to be pressed in and the center of the hole has an anvil (a hump shape) with a few tiny flash holes around the hump.  The Berdan primers I used, were ordered from Old Western Scrounger years ago.  They looked like they were painted with green lacquer inside. 

I too have had instances of the foil and fulminate coming out of the caps, but I have had the same with Italian non foil lined caps also.  On one occasion I saw the fulminate and foil stuck to a nipple after the copper cap was removed.  The gun, an old double still fired. 

In his book the Gun and it's Development, W. W. Greener stated that the first centerfires came about in the 1830's and he specifically mentioned the Dreyse needle fire system and a few other breech loading combustible cartridge  guns. 

The early Maynard breech loaders used a cartridge case that had a modern style flash hole, but no primer pocket.  When the  break open gun was loaded and closed the flash hole was directly under a percussion nipple which was in line with the flash hole and bore.  Similar to a single shot shot gun, but with a percussion nipple where the firing pin normally is on  single shot shot guns.     

I have checked in several of my gun books and can't find an explanation.  I talked to a guy that identified himself as an assistant curator at the Smithsonian  and he knew less than I do.

I do have a motive, aside from idle curiosity.  Pa hunting regs for the regular deer season say I can use any manually operated center fire rifle or handgun.  It does not require a center fire "cartridge"

To my way of thinking, center fire is just a type of ignition, like a match lock, wheel lock, pin fire, rim fire, etc.  Ignition is not dependent on where the gun loads, whether it loads from the front, the breech, or somewhere in the middle, like the Hall and Green carbines or cap and ball revolvers.    On an English firearms auction site, there was a breech loading cartridge flint lock.  It was a break open design and each cartridge had it;s own flash pan and frizzen.  Like wise, there were break open style breech loading percussion arms, some took paper cartridges like the Sharps, some took iron cartridges which contained a percussion nipple in the base and used a box lock hammer to strike them.   They were indeed, like the first Gatling gun ammunition, percussion centerfire.    If a percussion nipple lines with the center of the chamber, and the chamber contains the powder and ball, does a cap and ball revolver also qualify as centerfire.     Does a preloaded cylinder that can be interchanged serve the same purpose as a cartridge? 

I have an original Wurfflein muzzleloader, built in Phila around 1860, which uses the same type of hammer and firing pin as a break open single shot rifle. But it does not break open and has no hinge.   The percussion cap is placed on a nipple over half way up the hollow barrel through a hole underneath and the powder and ball are placed in through the muzzle.  The hammer falls on the 14 inch long firing pin, pushing it forward to  slam into the cap on the nipple.   the nipple is centered into the barrel in line with the bore.  Center fire? 

Daryl

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 04:33:48 PM »
Just showing up in court with a cap tin marked "centerfire", should be enough for the court.  Being enough for the game offcier who is going to charge you and confiscate your rifle, it might not be enough but you will have your day in court and get your rifle back- hopefully in good condition.

Offline George Sutton

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Re: percussion caps - center fire??
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 07:04:37 PM »
IMHO I believe it is written to give the shooter faith that the flame will be directed to the center of the nipple.

Centershot