Author Topic: English walnut  (Read 15312 times)

Offline cmac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
English walnut
« on: July 11, 2012, 02:45:35 PM »
Does anyone have any examples of original American rifles or fowlers that had an English walnut stock?

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19534
Re: English walnut
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 03:27:57 PM »
Generally when we find an original gun stocked in English walnut we assume it was stocked in Europe.
Andover, Vermont

4ster

  • Guest
Re: English walnut
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 04:04:50 PM »
If there is an american rifle stocked in english walnut it must be an oddity. 

American forests were providing wood that was to a large degree superior to what was available in england.  Look at the wood used to construct houses in england at the time.  It was smaller and twisted and english timber framing had to compensate for that.  American timber framing of the same period had a bounty of virgin forest to supply it and the framing was constructed of straight hewn timbers, because the framers could afford to "waste" a lot of the tree to make them.

Why import wood from england when there was so much better wood available here? 

Thinking about this is interesting.  I wonder if the reverse were true?  Are there any english or european stocked guns in american species?

Online James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3164
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: English walnut
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 04:22:21 PM »
Does anyone have any examples of original American rifles or fowlers that had an English walnut stock?


If this is concerning a future build around a piece of English already acquired, don't forget the tons of euro walnut guns that were used in America but made elsewhere.   ;D

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: English walnut
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 06:39:47 PM »
Lots of high end Jaegers made with maple stocks, but I don't know the origin of the wood. Did American wood get exported to Europe? Certainly mast pines, and white oak was a staple trade in New England.

Ships brought goods to America, and certainly did not go back empty.

Did American STOCK wood get used in Europe?
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4474
    • Personal Website
Re: English walnut
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 06:46:03 PM »
With regards to maple, it is native to Europe and England.  Field maple is a variety I have been told was used for gunstock material.

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: English walnut
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 06:48:35 PM »
Surprisingly little "English" walnut is English.  Most of the "English" came from Continental sources.  The best English walnut (Juglans Regia) came from France and the remote regions of Turkey, the Caucasus and Greece.  Morocco was also a good source.  I am currently waiting for some high grade sample blanks from Pakistan.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: English walnut
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 06:49:44 PM »
I know almost nothing about English Walnut, though when I asked about it a while ago, I understood most folks who had used it said it was a tougher wood than most Black Walnut and took carving better. 

I “grew up” with Black Walnut as my Grandfather flatly stated it was the ONLY wood to use for furniture, short of mahogany or even cherry for some uses.  I have never tried carving it, but some of the Black Walnut I have is DARN hard and tough.

I’m going to have to get some pieces of English Walnut to play with so I can better understand it, I guess.

Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: English walnut
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 06:50:34 PM »
Surprisingly little "English" walnut is English.  Most of the "English" came from Continental sources.  The best English walnut (Juglans Regia) came from France and the remote regions of Turkey, the Caucasus and Greece.  Morocco was also a good source.  I am currently waiting for some high grade sample blanks from Pakistan.

That explains a lot.  Thank you.
Gus

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1547
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: English walnut
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 06:53:04 PM »
I really like the look of Englsih Walnut. I have a Jim Chambers short rifle that is stocked in that wood.
Galations 2:20

eddillon

  • Guest
Re: English walnut
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »
Gus,
If you want a small piece to experiment with, let me know.  I'll send you a block for you to carve.  Once you have worked with it, you will be spoiled.  Warning!! addicting aroma and dulls files.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4474
    • Personal Website
Re: English walnut
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 07:01:55 PM »
You know, I've heard people praise black walnut, call English walnut the king of stock wood etc. but in my view nothing can stand with a good piece of sugar maple.  Everything I've tried seems to fall short.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: English walnut
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 07:13:18 PM »
Lots of high end Jaegers made with maple stocks, but I don't know the origin of the wood. Did American wood get exported to Europe? Certainly mast pines, and white oak was a staple trade in New England.

Ships brought goods to America, and certainly did not go back empty.

Did American STOCK wood get used in Europe?

A great deal of Mahogany was exported to England and Europe  from the America’s for furniture in the 18th century as well, but I never heard of any large trade in what we would call stock wood,

Gus

Offline JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
Re: English walnut
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 08:57:24 PM »
"Did America export wood to England?"...

Beginning in colonial times, literally millions of board feet every year. The rough figure for 1792 is approximately 1,300 tons. I have this fugure broken down into board feet and by type in my notes somewhere but most of this was hardwoods for the simple reason that soft woods were readily available to the British timber market from Russia and the Baltic - a much shorter distance and generally lower prices than American wood.

Exports included maple gunstocks... something I have documentary proof of for 1817... the Ketland brothers bought two or three huge tracts of timbered land in Pennsylvania for the black walnut.

As to English vs. American walnut... all walnuts grown in America as a fruit tree were "English". The fruit of the American walnut tree is virtually inedible. As late as the beginning of the 20th century the distinction was made between them by referring to the American nuts as "pig nuts" (i.e. good only to feed to pigs) and "English Walnuts" which were the ones you ate. My grandmother (b.1893) still used these terms.

Also, walnut is not indegenous to England. It only arrived in the middle to late 16th century, originally from Persia via eastern Europe. This is why walnut stocks on 17th century English guns are virtually unknown - there were no trees large enough yet to make a stock from. Most 17th century stocks are Beech. Walnut trees that were big enough to make a gun stock from were much more valuable for their nuts. American colonists started planting the "English" tree as soon as they arrived. While you can tell the difference between the woods, you can't tell where it was grown so its perfectly possible that "English" walnut was even exported to England.

With a few reservations, the whole business of saying where a gun came from by the type of wood in the stock is a myth. Timber was the largest single export of the American colonies and the early Republic and Britain was our biggest customer.



Online James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3164
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: English walnut
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 09:09:50 PM »
Virginia was even shipping back casks of hickory gunrod blanks in the 1760's.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4474
    • Personal Website
Re: English walnut
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2012, 09:23:06 PM »
"Did America export wood to England?"...


Also, walnut is not indegenous to England. It only arrived in the middle to late 16th century, originally from Persia via eastern Europe. This is why walnut stocks on 17th century English guns are virtually unknown - there were no trees large enough yet to make a stock from. Most 17th century stocks are Beech. Walnut trees that were big enough to make a gun stock from were much more valuable for their nuts. American colonists started planting the "English" tree as soon as they arrived. While you can tell the difference between the woods, you can't tell where it was grown so its perfectly possible that "English" walnut was even exported to England.



This statement is not true.  There are plenty of 17th century English guns stocked in walnut.  Concerning guns of any quality, the two basic choices were walnut and burl maple, at least for the last half of the 17th century.  A quick look through Great British Gunmakers will demonstrate this point.  Beech may have been used on lower grade military and trade guns, but was not widely used on higher grade arms.   Wood choice for higher grade guns was largely driven by fashion.  The widespread use of burl maple from say 1670 to 1710 is an example of this.  Paris gunmaking had a huge influence of that in England.  The use of burl maple in Paris began to decline during the last decade of the 17th century in favor of plainer walnut.  England followed suit though though they lagged behind ten or twenty years.

Offline heinz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
Re: English walnut
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2012, 09:40:37 PM »
I have eaten lots and lots of black walnuts and I believe their consumption is well documented on the frontier along with the use of black walnut hulls as dyestuff.  Their are far stronger than English walnuts but are fine for baking and cooking. 
The only nut I eever heard referred to as a "pig nut" in southern Ohio and Indiana was the pig nut hickory, but those are regional coloquialisms and can vary widely in meaning.
kind regards, heinz

Offline Long Ears

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 722
Re: English walnut
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2012, 09:44:26 PM »
JV,
I totally disagree with your definition of the two walnuts,. I grow both species on my place here in Idaho. The Black or American walnut flourishes and the English struggles in our climate but we harvest a nice crop of both each year. The black makes a way better dye than the English I think. My Mother bakes with both varieties the black being quite a bit stronger in flavor. I have never seen any of our local English with much figure but our black is fantastic and loaded with reds and purples and as hard as any Maple I have worked. Just Google up the two and it is easy to see the difference and a totally different grain and pattern. Where the varieties originated I don't know. Bob

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: English walnut
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2012, 10:27:12 PM »


As to English vs. American walnut... all walnuts grown in America as a fruit tree were "English". The fruit of the American walnut tree is virtually inedible. As late as the beginning of the 20th century the distinction was made between them by referring to the American nuts as "pig nuts" (i.e. good only to feed to pigs) and "English Walnuts" which were the ones you ate. My grandmother (b.1893) still used these terms.




I certainly would not call American Black Walnuts "inedible"!!!!!   neither would a great many other people!

The "pignut" is a type of Hickory (and no, they're not generally very palateable, I don't think).
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: English walnut
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 10:55:46 PM »
pig·nut (pgnt)
n.
1. Either of two deciduous trees (Carya glabra or C. ovalis) of the eastern United States, having pinnately compound leaves, male flowers grouped in catkins, and nuts with somewhat bitter kernels.
2. The nut of either of these trees.
3. The wood of either of these trees.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pignut [ˈpɪgˌnʌt]
n
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Plants) Also called hognut
a.  the bitter nut of any of several North American hickory trees, esp Carya glabra (brown hickory)
b.  any of the trees bearing such a nut
2. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Plants) another name for earthnut


Pig Nut is a hickory.

I grew up with English Walnut and Black walnut trees on our ranch in CA  large groves of very mature tree of both kinds in the 1950's.. And I had the duty of shelling both kinds for my mother's baking...... Oatmeal cookies with black walnuts are the best!!!!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 11:01:20 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: English walnut
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 12:36:07 AM »
Tim, I agree about the great taste of American walnuts. In the mountains of VA they were prized for baking and my Mom used them in her applesauce raisin cake every Christmas.

Getting the hulls off and picking the meat out of the shell was a pain but worth it! Too bad I didn't know any of the walnut-hull-brown re-enactors back then.

In terms of exporting wood from the colonies to England, the "Customs Reports" from mid-18th century VA show walnut being exported in the log. Could have been used for anything.

Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Long Ears

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 722
Re: English walnut
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2012, 01:31:02 AM »
We have got to stop talking about Mom and her baking with Walnuts! Dr. Tim, Oatmeal with either walnut is my favorite. With Ice cold milk! Sorry off topic. Bob

Offline cmac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: English walnut
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 03:56:39 AM »
I picked up a blank at a shoot for $85. It is square from the breech forward and will accept a 44" barrel( no inletting done). The buttstock however has been run threw a duplicator to what appears to be a bulky Lancaster profile. The wood is very dark and full of figure and HARD. Just looking for opinions and ideas for a build. I figured it would be rare to see an American rifle or fowler stocked in this wood. Might just have to go for an odd Lancaster rifle anyway being that it has most of the back half shaped. Sure is a pretty piece of wood and I couldn't pass it up for $85

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: English walnut
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2012, 04:34:34 AM »
My Grandpa was a WWI veteran and when he came home and married, he planted Black Walnut trees everywhere he could in the yard in Iowa.  I think there were 11 trees he had around his place.  His intent was to harvest them for furniture wood, but Grandma collected the nuts, hand picked them and sold the nuts for extra money right up to her death in the 1960’s.  Black walnuts in homemade raisin oatmeal cookies are great, but in home made fudge, it is almost heavenly.   So Grandpa had to get his walnut from other trees and those “yard” trees were not harvested for wood until after his death, because he would not cut down “Grandma’s Walnut Trees.” 

Gus

Offline cmac

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: English walnut
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 01:51:46 PM »
Venison is better!!