cutting inlays,patchboxes

[Luke]

thinking about trying to make my patch box from scratch,but how in the world do i cut those beautiful designs out by hand,what specific tool would i need would a fret saw work.? thanks luke

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

You're going to need a jewelers saw, and blades and extra blades.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/1037/1  
or my new favorite
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22360.0

Either create a design for your patchbox or scale up a photo of an original, put some 2 sided tape on the back and tape it to the brass. cut it out following the image on the brass, allow extra for the hinge. build your hinge, bevel the edges, and you're good to go.

[Lucky R A]

     A little tip,  If you make a pattern from a photo of an original patch box (a lot of us do), bring it up to the correct size and then scale it back about 5%.  When you trace around the pattern your are increasing the size.  When you cut it out, you cut to the line and you grow your finished product.  If you start out with the correct size your finished product will be larger than you wanted...

Ron

[James Wilson Everett]

Luke,

Here is a photo of an original 18th c jewler's saw.  You can buy a modern jeweler's saw today that operates just like the originals, just they look a lot more "clunky".  Be sure that you buy enough blades, they don't last long, especially if you are as clumsy as I am.

Jim

[Michael]

Bandsaw man!! Only way to go! It's nice to have a shop full of apprentices!!!!

[Dennis Glazener]

Not to steal this thread but I am sure Michael will have this same question:

Not normally having to make patchboxes for the Gillespie's that I normally make I rarely use my jewelers saw but when I do I am constantly breaking them. Also feel that the ones I have are too fine cutting. I need to order some more blades and wondered were to get the best ones AND what TPI should I get for use on .035 steel and brass? I will be making an iron patchbox in the next week or so and would like to order the blades now.

Dennis

[Acer Saccharum]

The saw should have 3 teeth in the material that is being cut. This keeps the saw from grabbing.

The numbers are very confusing. 

Saw blades have a range of sizes, from finest to coarsest: 8/0, 7/0, 6/0, 5/0, 4/0, 3/0, 2/0, 1/0, 00, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

So I buy three different pkgs, for a useful range, 3/0, 00, and 3.

the 3/0 will cut .025 to .04 metal just fine. But as the metal gets thicker, change to a coarser blade for better chip clearance. The 3 can be used on 1/16 steel, cutting slots, etc.

Check Rio Grande Jewelry supply or Gesswein.

T

[smart dog]

Hi Dennis,
I would use 1/0 or 1 jewelers saw blades.  They have about 50 TPI, which will give you at least 2 teeth in the metal.  If your designs are intricate, a finer blade such as Acer recommended would work better.   I prefer Laser Gold blades from Rio Grande (www.riogrande.com)

dave

[docone]

I use 2/0 for all my cutting. To get those fine patterns, you will do cut and pierce cutting.
You will also need a bench pin that will hold the material so on the downward stroke, the cutting stroke, you are pulling against something. I take my bench pins, and drill into them, and V the center out. This gives me versatility so I can turn the work without removing the blade.
Always set the blade so it cuts on the pull stroke, and yes you will snap a bunch of blades. I get them a gross at a a time.
Take a piece of beeswax and rub it on the BACKSIDE of the blade.
When I load a blade, I set the front of the blade, then I have a small hole drilled into my bench. I put the front of the saw into the hole, and with my chest, I shove the handle. This bows the frame and when I set the blade, releasing the bow tightens the blade.
A tight blade lasts!
To drill to cut, use a .032 wire drill. #67. Also use beexwax to drill with.
You can make some real delicate, fine cuts. Once you get the hang of it you will  love what you can produce.
The saw cuts suprisingly fast.
The blades snap. Some on the first stroke. I have a block of wood that I drilled an hole in. I set the dozen blades loose in the hole. That way, I can grab a blade quickly. I set them teeth down.
A jewelers saw is a joy to use. And,
Yes! the blades snap!
Good luck and make some great work.

[Eric Smith]

I use 2/0 for all my cutting. To get those fine patterns, you will do cut and pierce cutting.
You will also need a bench pin that will hold the material so on the downward stroke, the cutting stroke, you are pulling against something. I take my bench pins, and drill into them, and V the center out. This gives me versatility so I can turn the work without removing the blade.
Always set the blade so it cuts on the pull stroke, and yes you will snap a bunch of blades. I get them a gross at a a time.
Take a piece of beeswax and rub it on the BACKSIDE of the blade.
When I load a blade, I set the front of the blade, then I have a small hole drilled into my bench. I put the front of the saw into the hole, and with my chest, I shove the handle. This bows the frame and when I set the blade, releasing the bow tightens the blade.
A tight blade lasts!
To drill to cut, use a .032 wire drill. #67. Also use beexwax to drill with.
You can make some real delicate, fine cuts. Once you get the hang of it you will  love what you can produce.
The saw cuts suprisingly fast.
The blades snap. Some on the first stroke. I have a block of wood that I drilled an hole in. I set the dozen blades loose in the hole. That way, I can grab a blade quickly. I set them teeth down.
A jewelers saw is a joy to use. And,
Yes! the blades snap!
Good luck and make some great work.

Can some on enlighten me on the wire drill thing.  I figure its a really small drill used to start a jewels saw cut from inside a piece.

[aaronc]

Not to steal this thread but I am sure Michael will have this same question:

Not normally having to make patchboxes for the Gillespie's that I normally make I rarely use my jewelers saw but when I do I am constantly breaking them. Also feel that the ones I have are too fine cutting. I need to order some more blades and wondered were to get the best ones AND what TPI should I get for use on .035 steel and brass? I will be making an iron patchbox in the next week or so and would like to order the blades now.

Dennis

".035 steel and brass"    is this typical material for patchbox and inlay or just patchbox ?   I'm referring more to the brass with regards to inlay work.

Thanks, Aaron

[Acer Saccharum]

Folks use all kinds of thicknesses for patchboxes and inlays. From .025 up to 1/8.

Are you going to fit and inlet the patchbox, then file it smooth with the wood? Then you may want 1/16" material. Thinner material is easier to form  hinge knuckles with. But you can make a separate hinge, then attach it to the lid and finial. Or you can thin the hinge area of thicker material by filing BEFORE you form the hinge.

This appears to be a cast box, well over 1/16 thick



Jacob Kuntz, from the MEtropolitan Museum. The box lid is about .05, and inlays appear to be .03"or less:




A close up of the last image. Jacob had trouble keeping this flat, so he really nailed it down:

[Dennis Glazener]

".035 steel and brass" 

I normally use 1/16' (.065") for the grease hole boxes but the original rifle that I am using as a guide on the one I am working on now has very thin iron/steel so I am going to make it out of .035 sheet metal that I have on hand.

Like Acer said there are all different thicknesses used depending on the maker/area etc.
Dennis

[flintriflesmith]

I guess this question is out of line here with so many of y'all talking about how to use jewler's saws --- but has anyone ever seen any evidence, either in documents of on the metal, that 18th century Amerian gunsmiths owned or used a jewlers saw?

I have seen patch boxes that were cut from sheet with a chisel and many where the edge of the box showed fairly course file marks. Considering the frequency of breaking blades, and the challenge/expense of making those fine toothed blades with period technology, I am not convinced that period gunsmiths used them. Convince me!
Gary

[Eric Smith]

Giving it a thought or two, you may well have a point there, sir!

[James Wilson Everett]

Gary,

A good point in your posting.  Lacking any such definitive evidence, we are left with supposition.  Certainly the saws were available in the early time period, and of course, could have been used by the gunsmiths.  But, this does fall far short of the convincing evidence required to be certain.  It often leaves us with the repeated question - How Did They Do That???  (HDTDT)

Anyway - here is a jewlers saw from the mid 18th c John Wyke tool catalog that maybe - perhaps - could of - been used by a gunsmith.

Jim

[flintriflesmith]

I have seen a few patch boxes where there was good evidence that the profile and the piercings were cut (hacked out) with a small cold chisel and then filed with fairly course files. (Not the needle files like many of us are tempted to use today.)

Gusler did the box on the Gunsmith of Williamsburg rifle this way and in my years as shop master we used either a chisel or a hacksaw --- often both--- never a jeweler's saw.

If you have a chance to look at a detached patchbox, examine the edges. A lot of them have file marks resembling a 6-8 inch modern bastard cut file. There are some later boxes around that show that the outline of the box was scribed on the underneath surface and they were files to just outside the scribe line. I believe those may be showing that a pattern was used.

Gary

[James Wilson Everett]

Gary,

This is still in the area of maybe and perhaps, but your question has stimulated my long unused brain.  When we have the oops! of breaking off a shank in making lock threads with a screw plate (I assume this never happens in CW, but it does to me - Ha Ha) the recovery requires the use of a jewlers saw.  Or, at least that is my understanding of how the screw plates with the side holes were used.  If the gunshop did not have a jewlers saw handy, it may have necessitated a walk over to the silversmith shop to borrow theirs.  Anyway, here is a photo of a typical screw plate with the side holes that allow the jewlers saw blade to cut across a broken threaded shank for removal.  Gosh, I think that I would rather discuss the old tools than the old guns!!

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

great discussion! Thanks for your input, Gary and Jim.

[James Rogers]

Aren't those types of plates with the side slits a 19th century affair?
I have recently acquired 3 plates and my largest is a Stubbs made with the slits while the others do not have them.

[bama]

Before I bought a Jewelers Saw I did cut my boxes out as close as posible with a hacksaw and then filed the design out to complete. This is not a bad process but it takes more elbow grease that the Jewelers saw.

I had a jewelers saw for years but I could not figure out how to use it without breaking the blade every 5 seconds. I finally watched a video on the net and presto I could use the saw and break much less blades.

The blade numbering is confusing but I finally deterimed that a 2/0 was the best all around blade for me. Here are the things that will help in it's use.

Make sure you have a good tension on the blade. It should give you a good twang when you pluck it like a banjo string. To do this hold the handel of the saw in you gut and the head of the saw against your bench. As you are inserting the blade push in a little with your gut to bend the "C" of the saw in a little. Place your blade, tighten and then release the pressure on the saw. This should give you a nice tight blade.

Make sure you have the teeth going in the right direction. The teeth cut on the down stroke.

Do not apply to much pressure to the blade when you are cutting. You will be surprised at how easy the saw will cut if you have the right tension, teeth the right direction and lube on the blade.

I find it better for me if I cut straight away from my body.

I lube the blade with candle wax just because I have a candle on the bench but bees wax would probably be better. Lube is very important in blade life.

Get on of the clamp on jewelers saw bench dogs to support your work while you are cutting.

You can cut fairly intricate designs with a jewelers saw.

In many cases I think that Gary is right and he probably is in this case.

These saws may not have been that common in the gunshops of early America, I do not know.

[Michael]

I think Gary is right on the mark.

[flehto]

The only times I use a jewelers saw is on fragile pieces and windows in Pboxes. Otherwise mostly a hacksaw, but also a cold chisel is used and a variety of coarse files. !/16" brass files very easily w/ a coarse file and it's surprizing how fast the mat'l is removed.....Fred

[smart dog]

Hi,
I use my jeweler's saw very often, even for cutting bolts to the exact right length.  This is an interesting discussion because I have seen old illustrations of 17th and 18th century saws but never the blades.  Gary's question about how they were made is a good one.  Regardless, my goal is to emulate the artistic traditions and styles of the periods I choose to work in but not relive the past.  Consequently, even if rural 18th century American gunsmiths did not have access to jeweler's saw blades and needle files, I'll keep using mine.  It makes me wonder, how did 17th century Brescian gunmakers cut or file the intricate lace-like iron inlays for which they were famous without very fine tools?

dave

[Lucky R A]

Gary,  I suspect that is why we don't see all that many piercings in the early work.  I have cut piercings in patchboxes and inlays w/ a chisel and no matter how I did it, it tended to displace and distort the metal.  This is not a super big deal if you are making a one off, but if you are doing really good copy, things can go south rather quickly when you get to filing up the edges of a chisel cut hole.  I have to believe that after 1800 or so some type of "jeweler" saw was available.  If you look at the piercings on the Western PA guns and some of the Upper Susquehanna guns they were not cut with a chisel.  Guns that have identical inlays out the foreend some times show evidence that the inlays for each side were cut together.  A slight mistake on one will show in all on one side.    Another consideration might be the fret work on vintage clocks made in Germany and Switzerland, they sure didn't chisel those intricate cuts...just something to consider...
Ron