Lock bolts

[Eric Smith]

Every thing I have read or heard says to leave a web of wood 1/8 to 3/16 between the barrel and the ramrod hole. I have a set of lock bolts from TOTW that mic out at .157. Doesn't that pretty much wipe out all that wood between the barrel and the ramrod hole? And if you miss by hair to the ramrod channel, would that not impede the ramrod? Boggles the mind! Heck a pencil mark can be a 1/16 if not carefull.

[Don Getz]

There are few gunbuilders on this forum that haven't had problems of a lock bolt impeding a ramrod.   Why do you think
Tom made those neat ramrod scrapers.   The reason for having a thin web between the bottom of the barrel and the
ramrod hole is to give you a more trim rifle.  If you calculate correctly you will end up with a slight slot in the bottom of the
barrel channel where the front lock bolt goes thru.    This might only happen when you go thru with a clearance drill.
Don

[Tom Currie]

Eric, Proper selection and placement of the front lock bolt  and web thickness is sort of advanced longrifle building. Getting this right allows for a slim rifle as Don suggests. A tapered rod is another factor that allows for making a slim rifle and making everything fit.  Sometimes a slightly notched barrel is an option and sometimes a narrowed screw or notched screw helps make everything work.

I think you're a longs ways from this step but be careful when you get there.  Right now focus on making that web correct in that area.

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
Don't worry very much about the front lock bolt.  I would start with a 3/16" web and work slowly.  Make the ramrod groove the right depth and even to act as a proper guide for the drill, and then drill slowly.  A tapered ramrod, which is usually preferable anyway, likely will solve any issue of the lock bolt entering the ramrod hole.  In fact, this may not be kosher, but that happened on several of my guns and the tapered rod rubbing lightly on the bolt helps to add friction keeping the rod in place during shooting. 

Eric, there are many ways to skin a cat and many creative ways to meet your objectives or solve problems.  There is no single right way to do things in long rifle building.  For example, I am building a rifle as a well-deserved gift for a friend who has helped me many times over many years.  The gun has a D weight 58 cal. swamped barrel, a big bruiser.  I want the gun to be as slim as possible so I am using every trick in my arsenal.  One trick, is that the ramrod groove is roughly parallel to the sides of the barrel not to the bore.  The web is just a shy over 1/8" at the muzzle and at the wider breech.  Because of the rapid taper from the breech, the space between the barrel and ramrod hole by the front lock bolt is almost 3/16" and I will use an 8-32 bolt.  My other tricks are to have the stock cover less than half of the side flats of the barrel and about 1/3 of the ramrod thimbles.  In addition, I'll use a ramrod groove molding that comes higher up the sides of the stock.  All of those features should give the gun a slim and tapered profile despite the big barrel.

dave     

[Bob Roller]

I am making 2 lock bolts,8x32 for $92.50 each  but they will have a small Ketland flintlock to go with them. This style of lock wll be fine for a "Southern" style rifle. The man that I am making this for has had a financial reversal so I am offering it now on this forum.

Bob Roller

[heinz]

Bob, sent you a private email

[flehto]

I use a #6-32 front lockbolt and an #8-32 for the rear. Even w/ the #6-32, a shallow groove has to be filed into the bbl. The rear bbl lug is dovetailed but doesn't have a base and is soldered in. Prefer 3/32" webs so the above are mandatory......Fred

[Long John]

I try to get things so I have a shallow groove cut in the bottom of the barrel rather than a skinny ramrod.  That forward lock bolt is back near the breech where the barrel is generally pretty thick.  A goove a 1/16 of an inch deep will not pose a safety issue unless you are using a really thin-walled straight octagon barrel with a large caliber bore.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Don Getz]

John.......cutting a groove in the barrel, yep, have done that too.     You see a lot of old barrels done this way..........Don

[Habu]

On my fourth or fifth rifle the lock bolt intruded a bit on the ramrod channel and I still had to groove the barrel.  When it was done, that was the first rifle I built where I thought I might someday get the forend slender enough.

[Artificer]

Found this thread interesting and it finally gave me the reason I found a very unusual front lock bolt screw in an original pistol about 15 years ago.  I was selling a few extra pieces from a friend’s collection for him.  One flintlock smoothbore pistol appeared to be French and he thought it was, but it was not the quality I would have expected of a late 18th or more likely early 19th century pistol and it had no marks that could be traced to a French source.  I wasn’t sure if it was a lower grade Belgium piece for the African trade or if it may have even been made somewhere else as a copy of a French style and perhaps even in North Africa?  .

Anyway, the heads of both lock bolts were as similar as could be expected for handmade screws.  However, the body of the front lock bolt was not only smaller in diameter than the rear screw, but was also not cut to an even diameter from the head to the threaded portion, as would have been expected from using a screw grinder. Most of the middle section of the body seemed to have been forged smaller in diameter than even the threaded portion of the screw.  Maybe the body had originally been cut to the same diameter of the threaded portion and then the screw was lengthened by heating it and upsetting the center section of the screw to “stretch it” and make it a smaller diameter in the center of the body?  At least that is what it looked like to me.   

At the time, I thought that it had been done that way to save the cost of some iron in the screw.  Now I realize it probably was done to keep the ramrod channel web small and clear the wood ramrod.  I have not been “inside” a large number of pistols made in France or England of the same period, but I’ve been inside a few of them.  I never noticed a front lock bolt deliberately made smaller in the center section of the body that way.  Perhaps that is how the gun maker solved the problem on that pistol instead of making a file cut in the barrel to clear the front lock bolt? 

Gus 

[Long John]

Gus,

There are a lot of front lock bolts out there with grooves filed in them or the diameter turned down where the ramrod passes.  Some times that ramrod drill has a bit of a mind of its own and you have to deal with the consequences.   I don't like thinning down bolts but sometimes it is part of a solution.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Dennis Glazener]

On my fourth or fifth rifle the lock bolt intruded a bit on the ramrod channel and I still had to groove the barrel.  When it was done, that was the first rifle I built where I thought I might someday get the forend slender enough.

With all the talk about lock bolts I thought I would post this photo. I drilled/tapped the lock bolts this morning and just took the barrel out of the stock. I was concerned since the 8 X 32 bolt was .166 and the web at the muzzle is .175. I went just a little high to be sure and I barely "skint" the barrel, probably more luck than anything else. The hole never broke into the rr hole. The channel looks deeper but its probably less than .010" deep.
Dennis

[Eric Smith]

Thanks for posting that, Dennis. A picture is worth a thousand words. Thats a confidence booster.

[JohnTyg]

Dennis,

Looks exactly like my Barrel.

John

[Artificer]

Gus,

There are a lot of front lock bolts out there with grooves filed in them or the diameter turned down where the ramrod passes.  Some times that ramrod drill has a bit of a mind of its own and you have to deal with the consequences.   I don't like thinning down bolts but sometimes it is part of a solution.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

Thanks John,

I have seen lock bolts with grooves filed in them to clear the lock bolts, but I had never seenone forged down in the certer to clear the ram rod.  Thanks for the information.
Gus