Siler Lock Kits

[Eric Smith]

Siler lock kits are much cheaper than assembled locks/ Assuming one knows what fits where and how it goes together,How to disassemble and reassemble o Siler lock, how hard are they to assemble from a kit and what is involved? You can blame Long John for this ?. He said he used a small Siler kit on his #13. That sent the wheels to turning.

[Eric Smith]

I only ask as a matter of gathering information. Believe me, I have no intention of trying to assemble a lock kit at this time. I do have my plate full trying to build from a blank for the first time. Having no experience in woodworking or metal working at all, this endeavor has been quite challenging. But so far I'm on track. The rifle I am building is not perfect, but the next one will be better. No reason not to absorb some more knowledge for the future. When I am not actually working on the rifle, I am pursuing further knowledge.

[Long Ears]

Boy you jump right out there! With all the drills, reamers and heat treating involved with assembling a lock from parts. Considering a good heat teat oven is $1500 and lets see, most guys build a jig and use a Mill to bore the holes. I think I will call Chambers for awhile longer. I'm sure some of these guys can use an electric drill and a coal forge I'm just not one of them. It would be very rewarding if you could learn to do it correctly in a class. Good luck, Bob

[Eric Smith]

I'm just asking. What does it involve doing? Purely a hypothetic ?.

[rich pierce]

First it involves filing and sawing off the casting gates or extra material on parts.  Then filing some interacting surfaces.  Then a lot of drilling and reaming, then tapping that is quite precise.  It is difficult to achieve without special jigs to hold the lockplate.  The tumbler should be turned in a lathe.  Then parts have to be final fitted then hardened and tempered.  I've done it when I had access to a full machine shop but it has to be for a special purpose.  In other words a complete lock is not available.  On the other hand I "think" Chambers offers a large Siler lock assembled but the plate is not shaped and that offers some more customization.  No discount on that, methinks.

[Habu]

I put a Siler lock kit together back in high school, mostly using a drill press, taps, and various files and abrasives.  It came out OK, probably as good as most originals were when they were new.  But I also had an experienced machinist guiding me through the process.  I assembled a few more over the next few years, built a few parts for old locks, and even made a few locks from scratch. . . . 

. . . . and if tomorrow I was to start building a rifle for which a Siler would be appropriate, I'd buy one of Mr. Chamber's Delux Silers, or a finished Small Siler.  It just isn't cost effective for me to assemble the lock.  My the time the parts are polished, the holes drilled and tapped, and the heat-treating done, I'd have far more than $50 in labor in it. 

[JCKelly]

I used to assemble my own locks, there being less choice in the 1970's. Drilled holes not exactly 90 degrees to the plate, occasionally centers just a little off where they should have been. Had an oven at the time but may have done some heat treating with a torch. As a metallurgist I have some idea how bad that must have been. Generally they worked, sort of, anyway.

Now I scribble a check to Mr. Chambers.

His work a lot better.

I use nicer language in the shop.

Ya wanna mess w a couple of kits? Get with me off-site. I believe I have two good looking kits that I am unlikely to assemble now.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have more kits than I have years left in my life. 

No, that's not quite right. I have more lock kits than I'll ever finish in my life.  There ya go!


The only reason I can come up with for a kit is to build something that is not available. Don't buy a kit thinking you'll save money! Hoo-boy. We'll see you in a couple of years, and a few bags of parts later.

It's not that bad, but it's a pile of work to put one together and have it function correctly. The 'correctly' part is what concerns me.

Tom

[Dave B]

If you are truely interested in how to do it right take one of the classes offered at various locations around the country and learn from the best. Dave Rase taught a lock class at the Oregon gunmakers fair and I know I have seen classes offered at Bowling green through the NMLRA gunsmith classes. I have put several together but I have a back ground in metal machine work. Even with this I still managed to break a spring , loose my fly and crack a tumbler.  I can recomend the bivins articles in the Gunsmithing tips and projects book. There are about 12 articles in the book by John Bivins one of which walks through the building a siler flint lock from a kit.

[Habu]

Even with this I still managed to break a spring , loose my fly and crack a tumbler.

Let's just say you're not alone in breaking springs and losing flies, but how in the devil did you crack a tumbler?  I broke a frizzen once--dropped it after hardening/before annealing--but never damaged a tumbler (unless you count stripped threads or turning it undersize).  

There's a reason suppliers sell every part individually, and in large part that reason is kits . . .

[Eric Smith]

I think I have my answer. Thanks.

[Long John]

Eric,

The ONLY reason I built a lock kit for my pistol rather than just buying a finished locK is that in order to have an unbridled pan I had to rebore the frizzen and make a shouldered frizzen screw.  I wasn't sure that I could do the modifications on an assembled lock and then get it to fit together.  So I elected to assemble the lock myself.  I do not have a lathe or milling machine, just a little Delta bench top drill press.   It took me probably 40 hours to assemble the lock and I had to buy two replacement parts.

This is a "Small Siler" kit from Chambers.



I reshaped the lock plate a little, moved the step at the tail to the right a little, converted it to brideless pan to make it more 1750ish (Acer made me the frizzen screw), reshaped the cock and cock screw.

Can you do it?  Sure.  Usually, I take an assembled Chambers lock that is close to what I want and modify it to suit my design objective.  Ths lock started out as a Chambers Golden Age lock.



 I reshaped the plate a little, removed the step at the tail and reshaped the cock, all to make it look a little more like an early, hand-made lock from the 1760's.

I find it far more satisfying to take a Chambers lock and use it as the starting point to make my own.  That's one of the great things about the Chambers locks - they are such great places to start!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Just a shameless plug here - all locks assemble by us come with a life time warranty on springs and a one time replacement on any part that breaks as long as it hasn't been drastically altered by the owner.  Anything built from a kit has no warranty.   

[Gundog1409]

Mr. Chambers provides excellent instructions and drill guides with their kit which greatly improves the process -But unless you are skilled at heat treating, working with precise tolerances and challenges -consider that the learning curve is steep. I wouldn't buy a kit just to save money as you won't if your time is worthy. However, if you wish to assemble a closer fit,  tighter pan seal, faster and as good as sparker than a purchased complete you will after trials and tribulations. Therefore, this is a well thought out and great option offered by Jim Chambers for Siler locks. The good news is that after the learning climb you will have the knowledge to make lock adjustments and repairs.

[Rolf]

Putting together lockkits  is an exspensive way  to save Money. Only reasone to do is if you can't buy a suitable Lock for Your Project.

I made these two banana shaped bridelless pistol Locks for a pair of swedish pistols using the guts, hammer, pan and frizzen from a small siler lock and making a new lockplate.
To get the banana shape, the tumbler hole had to be lowerd in relation to the frizzen.

To lower the tumbler hole, use a compass to measure the distance from the middle of the tumbler hole to the frizzen screw. Place one compass leg on the frissen screw and draw an arc on the lock plate. The center of the new tumbler hole has to lay on this arc. Lowering the tumbler hole will require adjusting the, frizzen toe, cock shoulder, mainspring hook(that rests on the tumbler) and the tumbler beak(where the mainspring touches the tumbler).

I've test fired the locks with powder and they work fine. It's surprising how far it's possible to lower the tumbler hole without messing up the locks function. But it is a load of work.

[L. Akers]

I actually prefer using a kit.  Commercial makers, for liability reasons, will drill the sear pivot slightly "wrong" resulting in a harder trigger pull.  If I do it myself I can get the geometry right and get an optimum trigger pull.

[Boompa]

I actually prefer using a kit.  Commercial makers, for liability reasons, will drill the sear pivot slightly "wrong" resulting in a harder trigger pull.  If I do it myself I can get the geometry right and get an optimum trigger pull.

      That is new to me.  I have noticed that the sear on some locks will trip a little harder than on others but I never considered it was intentional on the part of the maker to make the trigger pull harder.

[davec2]

I built several locks from scratch in high school many, many years ago.  I have never had the urged to even assemble one since (although I have done so from Blackley and TRS parts).  I'm with Barbie and Jim on this one.....just as in the 18th century, I am content to let lock makers make locks and I will enjoy the fruits of their expertise and labor.

Here is the story about my first locks........

In 1969 I was a sophomore in high school.  I had a Dixie catalog with a 2" x 3" very poor black and white photo of a flintlock rifle.  You can imagine how much detail there was.  At the time, this was the best lock I could come up with.......



I built one rifle with one and it worked OK, but I innately knew it that its architecture looked more like a canoe paddle than a rifle...and I knew the lock was junk.  I determined to build a better lock (from looking at a bigger picture in the Dixie catalog).  I made a set of master parts in silver, brass, copper...anything that was easy to work.  Then I vulcanized a set of rubber molds and pumped waxes of all the parts.....







I found a local foundry that did steel castings.  The guy who owned the company got a kick out of a young kid trying to build flintlocks and he said he would cast as many wax patterns for me as I wanted to make up for $25.  I didn't have $25 but told him I could borrow it and he held out his hand and said "Deal !"  I made up 20 sets of wax parts and brought them back to him and he cast them all for me in a few days.  However, when I went to pick them up, he was holding a box and he said that the castings didn't come out as good as they should have, so I could have this batch for nothing.  When I opened the box, the parts all looked fantastic to me.  When I looked back up at him, he just winked at me.  I eventually had him do some additional castings for me and insisted that he let me pay for the next batch, which he did.



I started putting the pieces together and making a lock plate out of a steel strap......



Finally got the lock all together and hardened all of it.....and then, since I couldn't engrave, I covered the plate with asphaltum varnish, free hand scribed the decoration I wanted, etched the pattern with dilute nitric acid, and then gold plated the etched lines  before I removed the asphaltum mask.



I built two locks and then made a matched set of rifles for my Dad and I.  The barrels were Douglas, 13/16 inch straight, .45 caliber.  Not great locks, not good architecture on the rifles, (but much better than the first rifle with the Spanish lock.)  We still have the pair of rifles and they mean a great deal to me for the all the lessons I learned building them at the tender age of 16.

[Ed Wenger]

Excellent post, excellent work, especially for a 16 year old.  My hat's off to you, Dave....



      Ed

[Bob Roller]

I actually prefer using a kit.  Commercial makers, for liability reasons, will drill the sear pivot slightly "wrong" resulting in a harder trigger pull.  If I do it myself I can get the geometry right and get an optimum trigger pull.

      That is new to me.  I have noticed that the sear on some locks will trip a little harder than on others but I never considered it was intentional on the part of the maker to make the trigger pull harder.

Several things can create a dangerously light trigger or an impossible to fire situation.
One is sear spring tension,two is the angle and depth of the full cock notch,three can
be the length of the engagement of the sear as related to the position of the sear screw.
four can be the torque of the mainspring AND the angle and depth of the full cock notch.
IF the lock is set up for a set trigger of some type then it may have a light single trigger
feel.There are probably other things to figure as well but I can't think of them now.

Bob Roller

[bama]

I think everybody should build or attempt to build at least one lock. That way they will have the proper respect for our lock makers and their products. I have been building rifles going on 46 years now and I have seen a vast improvement in the quality of the locks and in the varity of locks that are available today. My hat is off to all the lock makers. There is no way to reproduce a lock and get better quality at the current price of locks today.

A freind and I were talking just the other day about how much the cost of parts have gone up since we started. He said I can remember when Turner Kirkland would walk around Freindship with buckets of original locks for 5$ a piece. I said how long ago was that? He said back in the 60's, well there you go we have went from 5$ to the price we have today in just 56 short years. I also remember the quality of the older locks and I know for a fact we are getting a much better product today.

I don't make locks, ocassionally I modify one or assemble some castings but I doubt that what I produce is any better than the current lock makers just a little different. I can make this statement, any lock that I put together could not be had at the cost of the price of locks today.

My thanks to all of our lock makers.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I built several locks from scratch in high school many, many years ago.  I have never had the urged to even assemble one since (although I have done so from Blackley and TRS parts).  I'm with Barbie and Jim on this one.....just as in the 18th century, I am content to let lock makers make locks and I will enjoy the fruits of their expertise and labor.

Dave - you are one of the few with such rare talent even at a young age that I am not supprised at what you have accomplished through the years. I started building blackpowder guns a few years before you and I am still a "hack" compaired to you - you have a true gift at all that you do - my hats off to you .

[P.W.Berkuta]

Siler lock kits are much cheaper than assembled locks/ Assuming one knows what fits where and how it goes together,How to disassemble and reassemble o Siler lock, how hard are they to assemble from a kit and what is involved? You can blame Long John for this ?. He said he used a small Siler kit on his #13. That sent the wheels to turning.

I bought my first kit from Dixon's in the early 70's when Bud Siler made them. I followed the directions and used a heat treat oven at work - when the parts came out of the oven they were all burnt up and looked like some beaver chewed on them. I call Bud and complained about his directions on tempertures for heat treating and this is what he said to me --- "Nobody he knows uses a oven for heat treating - they all use a torch or a forge". He would not replace any of the parts and I was totally "*#)*^~-OFF" and vowed never to use his locks again. Well that lasted about 1 month - the next kits I used a torch to heat treat and the oven to temper. Bottom line is this -- you want to waste time & money buy a kit - you want a great lock WITH a lifetime guararntee buy one from Jim Chambers .

[retired fella]

Several years ago I bought a Siler kit from Jim C. and had no problem what so ever.  Would I do it again, um..., probably but it is not a cost effective venture as to time involved.  Just follow the instructions and you will have no problem.  I will say "she who must be obeyed" was a bit miffed at me using her oven to anneal the frizzen.  And put a leash on the fly as it likes to jump and bounce all over the workshop.

A little extra work to polish the parts and I have a lock that is as fast as most.  Hats off to Jim C.  He puts our a quality product.

[David R. Pennington]

My first build was with a Siler kit and a plank. I don't think it was that difficult. The lock still works great. I heat treated by instructions in the kit with the parts in a pan of sand on the stove eye. Personally I wish all locks were available as kits. I would rather assemble them myself. I bought one assembled lock a while back that was way more work to get it to suit me than it would have been to assemble a set of castings.
It was NOT a Chambers lock, every one of Chamber's locks I have seen were well put together.