Author Topic: Shooting for accuracy  (Read 10775 times)

Offline Kermit

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Shooting for accuracy
« on: July 28, 2012, 02:35:41 AM »
This oughta start something. ;)

I'm wondering, and this seems like a good place to do it, about selecting a barrel for maximum patched roundball accuracy. I'm not interested (for purposes of this discussion) in lock maker or ignition type, wood species or grain, furniture metal, sights, metal alloy for the balls, powder, or ramrods. Just a barrel. So...

Caliber?
Rifling type--round, square, Forsyth...?
Length?
Profile--oct, round, OTR, swamped, tapered...?
Maker?
Whatever else?

You are just trying to put 10 balls in a row into paper at out to maybe 200 yards max. Tight group. Offhand. Patched roundball accuracy. Period.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 02:59:52 AM »
How steady are you at 200 yds. offhand?

Offline Kermit

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 03:46:07 AM »
Exactly as steady at 200 yards as I am at the firing line--unless someone's shooting at me. ;D
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 03:59:59 AM »
You are going to get as many different answers as people answering...we all have favourites, and strong opinions.
For example, I think that an offhand rifle should be around 10 pounds, and barrel length at about 42" gives a nice sight radius.  Yet some of my finest shooting was with a 31" .60 cal barrel in my Jaeger at 8 pounds.  So you see, I can't ever agree with myself!  And a .45 cal ball will not have the potential for accuracy that a .58 cal ball will have, simply because of the wind's effect over long range.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Long Ears

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »
OK so "into paper" at 200yds offhand? With open sights? Paper the size of a F-350 Ford 4X4? I know, I bet you can hold 10 rounds off hand at 200yds sub MOA right? I do believe all of the modern muzzleloader barrels made today will out shoot 98% of the shooters that own them with a properly tuned powder charge, patch and ball. Now I will admit I have had to regulate a couple of them to Point of Aim. I'm interested to hear what Daryl thinks of this question. He probably tunes his rifles better than anyone I know of but proofs them off of a bench so it truly reflects what the load and barrel can do. 200 yds off hand at a normal size 200yd target will tell you nothing. IMHO. Bob

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 04:18:44 AM »
Interesting comments Bob.  I believe it is important to find the best powder/patch/lube/ ball for a rifle and weasel out of the thing it's best performance.  For if it isn't doing it's best, the shooter surely cannot expect anything close shooting offhand.  Just look at the results of the 200 yd. ALR match.  Only about three of us have any interest in it, or are willing to provide the results.  It ain't easy.

We all have tried different barrels...Getz, Rice, Coleraine, Orion, Green Mountain, etc.  I think it was Don Getz who once said that if a barrel is uniform from breech to muzzle, and has rifling, it has great potential accuracy.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 04:54:33 AM »
 ;) Careful now, no fair getting into sights, patch, lube, and so forth. And I would expect someone would start by getting sighted in off a bench and develop a load, yada, yada...

But you have to make a decision about a barrel to buy FIRST. So what would it be? You've got no restrictions on source or cost or how it's configured. Got a preference?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 05:03:02 AM »
This should probably be in BP Shooting Forum.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 06:21:32 AM »
Perhaps, but I'm seriously trying to select a barrel for building a gun.  :-\
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 08:25:55 AM by Kermit »
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline JDK

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 06:39:25 AM »
Then the advice you received was good.  Ask the guys who put thousands of rounds a year down range and not the guys spending all of their spare time building guns.

Most builders here aren't getting consistant request from match shooters for builds.  Their customers are more concerned with the accuracy of the build than the accuracy on paper.....just as most target shooters feel vice versa.

Ragged one hole groups from a historically styled gun are just bonus points.  That's why we have different forum topics.

Enjoy, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Al Lapp

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 07:17:08 AM »
To be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between an accurate barrel and an inaccurate one at 200 yards off hand. Just my nickles worth.  Al

ottawa

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 03:02:52 PM »
good addvise so far a large caliber .54 or larger a barrel with some weight and rifling .
a long tapered barrel might have too much whip in it for long rang shooting so a strait or swamp for a plain look Oct to round I have no info on .and I would guess the type of rifling would be up too you everyone has their favorite type.
just my thought

Offline Robby

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 03:04:16 PM »
.58
square
44"
swamped
Rice
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

54Bucks

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2012, 03:36:54 PM »
About the only thing I'm convinced about regarding a target accurate barrel for use out to 200yds. is that it would have a straight profile and the calibre size would be .50 and up. The rest depends on the individual. Seems as much weight as I can tolerate did as much to settle the "wobbles" as anything.
 Unfortunately....I've never been able to put my finger on exactly which factor really was the most important for accuracy. Thinking the barrel was just another part of the guns make-up. Seems the best gun I ever shot just seemed to be balanced between fit(LOP ect.) and a sweet trigger/s lock function.
 Throw in all the load/loading possibilities,I look at the barrel as just another part of the equation. As has been mentioned before....all barrel manufacturers can make a batch of barrels that are theoretically identical. But they won't all shoot the same. ?????????
 I'de take a chance with a straight Green Mt. that suited my preferences.

Offline LH

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2012, 03:59:49 PM »
Be prepared to see some big groups at 200 and some confusing results in general.  I never shot much 200yd roundball targets til last year but I've shot the Musket agg at Friendship last fall and this spring which includes a 200yd target.  Winning scores on the C-1 target generally run about 70 to 75 with 10 shot groups in the 36" range.  Few shooters will not have a miss on that target which is very big!  The outermost scoring ring is 3 feet I believe.  Any amount of wind will play heck with a roundball thats in the air that long. Most of the musket shooters use bullets but I shoot a Harpers Ferry with roundballs.  In the past year,  I've probably put 200 or 300 downrange in practice and the best 10 shot group I can remember was probably 15 inches.  Most run 3 to 4 feet.  I've shot my gun off the rest enough to satisfy myself that the gun is worth about 12" at 200 if the wind isnt blowing.  Sighting error, bench technique, wind,  and all the other variables make it exceedingly difficult to prove though.   Building the gun is one thing,  figuring out what it will and wont do at 200 is another. 

Daryl

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 06:05:17 PM »
We've been using CandleSnuffer's 22" X 28" rectangle target for the 200yard match. It is not difficult to keep 5 consecutive shots on this target, offhand.

To shoot accurately, I firmly believe one must use as heavy a gun as can be mustered, along with as large a calibre as can be handled. That includes the powder charge needed for long range shooting.

Merely look at the BR guys and the loads they shoot at 100 and 200yards to achieve their BEST accuracy - then look at the calibres and twist rates to see what works- in both veins.

To attempt to shoot accurately offhand at 100 or 200yards, one must use an accurate load to start with, or you merely double or triple your potential group size.

A hate to say it here, but judging from some of the load combinations some of the guys here use, I am not at all surprised that people cannot put 5 or 10 shots on a 3foot circle at 200yards offhand.

Like Taylor said, you've got to make the rifle shoot as accurately as possible FIRST at the longer ranges, then practise offhand at 50, 100 and 200yards.

As to barrel length, it's a tossup - or contest between the longer sight radius helping and the extra length hindering due to follow through having to be longer. My 31" Sporting rifle has made some nice groups at 200 - round 2" to 2 1/2", and one nice 6 shot group, lost count, of 1 1/4" wide by 3" high.

Yes - those are bench groups at 200yards, but that accuracy helps immensely in the final talley. That was when Taylor and Candle Snuffer both used 50's, I think they were, neither of which had the 'bench' accuracy my little 14 bore was capable of (iirc).

If I was to make a rifle for shooting 200- it would be a 10 to 11 pound 16 bore and of English design, or maybe a Jaeger- and it would be a moose and elk rifle as well.

Taylor's got his .62 Hawken now shooting in the 3" arena at 200. It now has an opportunity to beat my .69 - albeit a slim one - HA!

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 02:15:24 AM »
   39 1/2 inch Getz Square grooves straight 50 cal and with fixed sights you must know your holdover needed at 200 yds and offhand is much poke and hope shooting.

  Annual shooting match at Bl Mt. ML club Shartlesville, Pa includes a closest to the X offhand 200 yd match buck a shot for a hundred dollar bill (no 2nd place on this baby.   We do that next weekend .

Vomitus

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 02:37:57 AM »
  Uncle Al Lapp summed it up.
To be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between an accurate barrel and an inaccurate one at 200 yards off hand. Just my nickles worth.  Al :o
Off the bench,different story. Good one Al! ;D
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:38:40 AM by Leatherbelly »

Daryl

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 04:06:25 AM »
Perhaps Al needs to shoot an accurate one? ;)

Offline LH

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 06:58:03 AM »
I tend to describe accuracy in terms of what I can demonstrate on demand rather than the best thing the gun has ever done on a few occassions.  When I said that I "think" my Harpers Ferry is worth about 12" at 200,  I meant that it shoots at that level of accuracy more often than not for 10 shot strings.  On the times I've shot groups with it,  there were many times when I might have 4 or 5 or more shots in groups of 4 to 6 inches, but the overall groups were much bigger.  The 4lb trigger doesnt help,  especially for offhand shooting either.   The only 200yd bench match I can find at the nationals is Match 160 ams roundball.  The 10 ring is 4 inches and the national record is 50xx and that was set in 1962.   So centering five shots at 200 into 2 moa is not very common.   Its fun to try though.   ;)

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 04:19:32 PM »
We shoot our rifles to develop a good "group", and shoot our shotguns to check the "pattern".    In regard to shooting
at a target off-hand at 200 yards, my question is, at what point does a "group" become a "pattern" ?..........Don

Daryl

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2012, 06:39:33 PM »
I figure a good group is one that would put every shot into the lungs of a moose, about 2' - offhand, at 200yards.  I managed to do just that, the only time I've ever shot an offhand group at 200yards. The rifle I used has proven it can easily stay on a moose's heart off a rest at that range - that-too, is good enough for me.

Years ago, late 1980's we had a 2 foot diameter steel gong hanging on the 300meter or yard rail.  At our local rendezvous my 14 bore rifle never failed to hit that plate, offhand.  In subsequent shots at it, everyone who elected to try the plate with my .69, hit it.  That rifle has never missed that plate.  Even though they hit the plate with the first shot with my .69, not a single one of them would fire at it a second time. Something like, "want to try it again?" -  "Thanks, that was enough" or "Thanks, I just wanted to see if I could hit it" or simply "No thanks" to "Not on your life".

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2012, 02:38:12 AM »
Daryl........If I had to put together a team of shooters to compete in an off-hand match at 200 yards, it would have to have
you and your brother on it.   For those of you that never met these guys, they are two husky fellows, as we often say,
"big enough to go bear hunting with a switch".........Don

Offline Kermit

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2012, 03:35:02 AM »
...and tall enough to hunt geese with a rake.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Daryl

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Re: Shooting for accuracy
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 05:25:43 AM »
You are too kind, Don, but we'd be pleased to be on your team.  I can well understand that for shooters used to shooting on the short side of 50 yards most of the time, 200 and 300 yards probably seems a really long ways off, next to impossible.  I well remember going to our first match and couldn't believe they shot at such close ranges.
 
Taylor and I used to be quite accurate at the farthest distance we shot round balls in those days - 325 yards, when we were kids shooting our muzzleloaders at the Squamish R&G club.  We thought it was quite easy then to hold on the white 14" target,  ofhand, of course.  A sitting rest, as taught by Elmer Keith, was used only for handgun shooting at the same range.   Of course, almost 40 years later, it's much less easy now, but we're still capable of slinging lead out to 200yards with reasonable accuracy, heck, that's only 2/3rds as far.

 Taylor is the offhand shot today, and if he had a big bore rifle, I'd probably not be competitive with him at 200 yards, just as he outshoots me at most any range, when shooting a flinter.  Hope he keeps shooting that little 20 bore Hawken with the light, 130gr. charge.   ;D