Judging results from Dixon's?

[wpalongrifle]

Mr Currie, Its been my attention to make knowledge about the happings at Dixon's more computer savvy!! I'll gladly post on all the forums and possably have another article in magazines etc. i cant guaranty all changes quickly!! might take time? i have to persuade!!! sometimes change is "not"well receptive.. do my best..

[Acer Saccharum]

I give a sincere 'Thank You' to the gentlemen and gentlewomen who have served the Dixon's judging event for so many years, giving generously of their time and knowledge.

There are many good ideas for revitalizing the judging. Good ideas are great, but this event really needs manpower.

Several things stick out, in my mind:
1) the event continues to shrink in attendance. (economics, age of builders, etc?)
2) people value the ribbons highly.
3) several judges are retiring/have retired

It seems like this event is at a turning point. Will it survive as is, disappear, or will it morph into something else?

I judged for two Dixon Fairs, but found it extremely difficult when I also had a tent to run. If you are counting on this weekend for business, judging really is not practical for you. If you don't have a tent, you may find it easier to fit some judging into your weekend. It is certainly educational. Knowledge and study of original work is extremely valuable for a judge.

Some folks have said 'forget the ribbons', and offer rifle critique only. This would help the builder get one on one feedback on their rifle/gun, and how to do better on the next gun. What about critiquing 'in the white guns', so the builder can still make corrections?

A year or more ago, Long John came up with a 'points on' system, one that would give you points for making the effort to carve or engrave. The better the work, the more points get added to your overall score.

There are so many angles one could look at the judging from, but you gotta admit that the event has always been a real draw. To survive, it needs participation, from both builders and judges.

[Long John]

While it is tempting to attribute all of the decrease in participation in the judging program on the economy, I suspect that succombing to that temptation is folly.

With this new rule change for this year, how could a rational person justify awarding a third place ribbon with no first and second?  Unless, of course it was to suggest to the participant that he/she need not bother entering a gun again. 

I will be the first to admit that the long journey, taking 9 years, to finally achieve a blue ribbon at the Fair was a learning experience but the mechanism of learning was NOT edification from reading a critique!  It was learning to pay closer attention to detail, learning that "good enough" was NOT good enough.  The reality is that wining blue ribbons at the Fair puts the builder on the map!  Before my Journey Rifle did so well 2 years ago no one would pay me for a build, less than 1 week after my rifle was awarded 6 ribbons 6 people asked me to build them rifles.

Several years ago I did develop a "points added" assessment system complete with Excel spreadsheet.  It went nowhere.  There was no interest in improving upon the status quo.  Maybe when there are only 10 guns entered and they all get 3rd place ribbons some one will act to save this aspect of the Fair.  Chuck deserves better that that!  But maybe things have to get worse before they get better.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[rich pierce]

And that, my friends, is the crux of the matter.  In the marketplace, ribbons do mean that a maker has arrived, and many have entered or advanced in the business by doing well at Dixon's or other venues where the makings are judged.   

This conflicts with the original purpose as I understand it, which was that the judging be educational.  The show aspect of the awards sort of runs against that.

Howsomever, the judges have expertise, apply it diligently and with fairness, and the results fall where they will.  Some can come in green, not knowing the lay of the land, and ribbon out because their work is truly outstanding and recognizable as such in any venue.  Others will build to the Dixon's Gunmaker's Fair standard.  I don't envy the judges a bit as somebody's going home disappointed and it is at some level a beauty contest after the basics of good craftsmanship are covered.

It's one of those things that does not make or break Dixon's for me.  I like seeing the guns and accoutrements folks have made, especially those who would not have a table, etc.  But if the ribbons went away,  and folks could just display their goods, that would be fine with me too.

[Jim Kibler]

Sorry, but I see things differently.  In my mind, the judging at Dixon's means little and the whole idea of a competition seems a little out of place.  Here's the facts as I see them.  The vast majority of guns entered are not top tier guns.  They generally have a lot of issues.  Even some I've seen that have placed highly often have issues from my perspective.  Yes it can be a learning experience, but in the scheme of things I think people entering guns often get too wraped up in things and put way too much significance on the event.  Build good guns and selling them will take care of itself. Success at a Dixon's competion is not necessary.  Ask who you feel are among the best builders out there for critique and you will get further in my view. 

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

There's that word 'Critique' again.

[Pete G.]

I had always thought that the whole point of the fair was to bring your work and have more experienced builders give you an assesment where it could be better. Turning it into a competition is counter productive.
Perhaps they should give a "participation trophy" like they do for kids in Little League baseball. That way nobody gets their feelings hurt and we're all one big happy village.

[wpalongrifle]

Jim, i understand some of your points but others confuse me? Not all new builders have a "top notch builder"down the street or in there back yard!!!  Dixon's is a place where most of the top builders meet each year! Where better than have the chance to ask questions? Most put on lectures or  do demistrations.. Lot of them have worked  their way threw the system?   Not too many places where you can spend a couple nights in a hotel and couple tanks of gas, and have the opportunity to talk and discuss gunbuilding on a sumwhat low budget? for free!!!   Yes theres gunbuilding classes!!!  usually week long,5 night hotel cost. Fee for class$$$ and travel expense!!!, while most don't complete there projects!!!  or have the funds to attend. This year was a down year, both in entered guns and amount of people attending. After the ribbons were handed out and guns were being claimed only four entrants stayed behind to discuss their critique sheets!!! some don't care? some upset? some hurry get home? some happy? Human Nature!!!! I come away from one thing, theres always someone who thinks there the best or ?, they enter a competition and loose!!! or don't do as good as expected!!!been happining for thousand years!!! theres always someone out there better or at least that day? hold you chin up high and don't be a poor sport. Come back next year and prove everyone wrong.

[Roger Fisher]

I had always thought that the whole point of the fair was to bring your work and have more experienced builders give you an assesment where it could be better. Turning it into a competition is counter productive.
Perhaps they should give a "participation trophy" like they do for kids in Little League baseball. That way nobody gets their feelings hurt and we're all one big happy village.

Well now, I 'won' one of those with last winter's effort looks pretty in green  I would point out that I don't recall having to pay an entry fee for that rifle nor have I noticed anyone else having to pay one.  So, we get a report card on our pride and joy/joys free of charge so how do we get off when we get such a report card free of charge?  One problem with the entering a piece for judging (and it is just that -someones judgement) is that at the very end and we are perusing our report cards there is little chance of asking one of the judges to explain those items that need explaining.  Not because the judges split and head for the truck; but because there are too many entries there that need an audience with one or more of the judges....so there are always questions that are not answered and we probably make the same mistakes on the next build.  This is not anyone's fault it is just the way it is.  I have no answer to fix that..  Btw being married for 62+ years it takes a lot to hurt my feelings   More more.

[Acer Saccharum]

Btw being married for 62+ years it takes a lot to hurt my feelings

Now, Roger, please. If you are asking for sympathy, you've come to the wrong store.

Good discussion.

I keep hearing, (maybe because it's what I want to hear?) that Roger and others would like to go over their work with the judges so they don't repeat the same mistakes. Am I hearing that?

[wpalongrifle]

Pete G, this thread has got in off its original intent? But couldn't disagree more!!! competition makes people better builders or whatever!!! in life. if we just give out gold medales to all the Olympians for trying sooo hard!!! this country has gotten "SOFT" ,cant hurt anyones feelings or don't make them madd..  good competition among your fellow peers is what this country was founded on!!!! not rewarding those who simply try to float by, without taking the time to ask for help or study.  Remember" Best Made" or "High Quality"..I think i need some therapy after this?

[Jim Kibler]

Jim, i understand some of your points but others confuse me? Not all new builders have a "top notch builder"down the street or in there back yard!!!  Dixon's is a place where most of the top builders meet each year! Where better than have the chance to ask questions? Most put on lectures or  do demistrations.. Lot of them have worked  their way threw the system?   Not too many places where you can spend a couple nights in a hotel and couple tanks of gas, and have the opportunity to talk and discuss gunbuilding on a sumwhat low budget? for free!!!   Yes theres gunbuilding classes!!!  usually week long,5 night hotel cost. Fee for class$$$ and travel expense!!!, while most don't complete there projects!!!  or have the funds to attend. This year was a down year, both in entered guns and amount of people attending. After the ribbons were handed out and guns were being claimed only four entrants stayed behind to discuss their critique sheets!!! some don't care? some upset? some hurry get home? some happy? Human Nature!!!! I come away from one thing, theres always someone who thinks there the best or ?, they enter a competition and loose!!! or don't do as good as expected!!!been happining for thousand years!!! theres always someone out there better or at least that day? hold you chin up high and don't be a poor sport. Come back next year and prove everyone wrong.

Well respected builders / students of the longrifle will be at about any longrifle show or gathering.  You don't have to go to a week long class for a critique.  Further, I would suggest there are very few that would be unwilling to help.  Competition seems out of place as does the idea of a checklist being sufficient to evaluate the merits of a gun.  Just saying that although seemingly well intentioned, I don't really thing it serves the intended purpose all that well.

Jim

[wpalongrifle]

Jim, I'll agree with you on that first point!! Usually at most of those events the table holder/builder is there to do business? talk about their product!!! do they want to be bothered by people asking questions? Most wont be!!! but after awhile??? The best teacher is opportunity to hold originals..    At Dixon's some of the table holders have gotten away from the intended purposes, Yes. i believe morphed into a way to cover cost of trip?? Everyone should do some type of demonstration or educational display!!! mike

[Acer Saccharum]

Separate the judging into two parts: critique sessions and ribbon contest.

Personally, I value critique far more than the ribbons. I know when my work is good, and when it's not, but I don't know WHY. This is where critique really helps. A few minutes with builder whose opinion I respect is worth hours at the books, bench and computer.

[wpalongrifle]

Acer, we implemented that two years ago!! Rifle in the white for critique only.. This year we had one entry? It was fully done, less stain.. Couldn't really make changes in problem areas? Basically done!!! I also like the critique part best!! Gun done by judging time. Mistakes already made. Too late.. Everyone puts lots of time and money into each gun built. Most ruin in the end.. Rush? Been there, done that!!!! Read critique and build next one better!!! I got a lot of guns out there not proud off. Mike

[Jim Kibler]

Jim, I'll agree with you on that first point!! Usually at most of those events the table holder/builder is there to do business? talk about their product!!! do they want to be bothered by people asking questions? Most wont be!!! but after awhile??? The best teacher is opportunity to hold originals..    At Dixon's some of the table holders have gotten away from the intended purposes, Yes. i believe morphed into a way to cover cost of trip?? Everyone should do some type of demonstration or educational display!!! mike

I firmly believe that most are more than willing to help others and would not be "bothered" by people asking questions.  Those that love this stuff are almost always willing to help.  This is from knowing many personally and my experiences over the years.  I think I've about said all I can.  I really have no stake at all in this.  Just sharing my views I guess.

[Acer Saccharum]

Acer, we implemented that two years ago!! Rifle in the white for critique only.

Crikey! Head stuck in sand. Did not know about this!

[wpalongrifle]

Jim, everyone has the right to express there own opinions!! No hard feelings towards anyone!! That's why I love this country. After studying the long rifle culture for over twenty years, it was the help of many others that helped me progress in gun building. I've been fortunate to have many builders close to me and many collectors that allowed me to have originals as bench copies. Not everyone so lucky!! One reason I believe in Dixon's gun fair and volunteer my time and knowledge for what it's worth??


Acer, I think we had two "in White" rifles for critique year before!!!! Although good idea, most don't want to take 5 years to build one gun ??

[Tom Currie]

Just throwing this out there.

How does the fair encourage builders to stick around to go over their work with judges ? Or is it up to the builders to make that happen ?

I'm guilty of not doing so as were several us of went down to the builders tent instead afterward for review. For me it was just familiarity with who I was talking to.

How about :

WE ENCOURAGE BUILDERS TO REVIEW THEIR WORK WITH JUDGES AFTER THE PRESENTATION

would that help ? or not ?

[Acer Saccharum]

As I said, Mike, I didn't know about the 'in the white critique'. Quite possibly because I wasn't paying attention, even tho' I did judge for two years!!

Some clarity is in order, in my opinion.

Maybe a mission statement, or letter of intent would help the judging event function without all the controversy. Clearly state the reason for existence, what the expectations of both Judge and contestant should be. Also outline when critique is available, if available.

[Long John]

First off, all of us who have entered guns in the past owe the judges a debt of gratitude.  They have donated their time and knowledge for the benefit of those who are striving towards a goal.  So please, don't take any of my comments as being motivated by "revenge" or acrimony towards the judges.  My motive is to save this aspect of the Fair.

I do not think the term "competition" is appropriate here.  Not that I am afraid of competition or am offended by it.  Competiton makes the competitor better.  But when I am working on a gun that I suspect I will enter I am striving to achieve the level of gun-making proficiency the judges will deem appropriate for recognition.  I am striving to attain an ideal - not defeat some one else.  Therefore I prefer the term "judging" or "judges' evaluation" or "expert evaluation".

I had a conversation with one of the judges in the accoutrements side of the building one year and he told me that they issue blue ribbons for "blue ribbon work".  There can be several blue ribbons in any category of evaluation.  Apparently they have a set of criteria for a particular accoutrement and if the submitted item meets those criteria it gets the recognition that is suitable.  If we want to encourage participants to improve their skills we must come up with a system of evaluation that rewards good work.  Positive reinforcement is always more effective than negative reinforcement.  I have been told numerous times that the way to get ribbons at Dixon's is to get a kit and build a dead-plain gun, no carving, no engraving and not do anything to it that gives one an opportunity to make a mistake.  I refuse to do that!  I think the  current system of gun evaluation needs improvement.  But I will continue to support the gun evaluation event at the Fair and I will continue to be grateful for the input the judges give me.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[SuperCracker]

As someone who is a relative newcomer to gun building and have never entered a gun (In fact this year was the first time I've been able to even attend) I've followed this thread closely. I intend to be entering a gun next year and plan on spending from now til then working on it.

Here's my POV.

I'm a competitive person, as I'm sure many are. I relish the chance to improve my skills by trying to win a competition. I find it extremely motivating.  Also, as someone who would like to build guns for others at some point in the future, I view being able to tout the winning of ribbons as the purse or payout for getting it right. Those awards are a tangible item that can help a new gun builder get established and help provide confidence to customers who may be on the fence about taking a risk with a newer builder vs an established old school name. They naturally must be equated to custom car builders being able to say they've won such and such an event.

That said, the number one biggest turn off for me has been the expectation of being penalized for trying to do something to stand out. If I spend the next year working on a difficult to build, ornate, inlayed, carved and engraved gun I should get credit for doing that instead of a dead plain "poor boy" rifle. Of course my engraving won't look like it was done by Baptiste but it should still count more than not trying to engrave at all.

I'm pleased in the extreme to see that this may not be the case next year. I will almost certainly have at least one gun entered next year and, if the scoring change is in fact the case, it will be a very very different animal than I would have been working on otherwise.

[Osprey]

Here's my idea to make it better.  Complete the judging Saturday evening.  Post results first thing Sunday morning, tell entrants they can't just pick up their guns and leave, they have to spend a few minutes with the judges going over their work, asking/answering questions on Sunday.  You'd have ribbons, personal feedback, and would move things along yet still keep enough people/guns around for the Sunday part of the show.

[Acer Saccharum]

Two judges are retiring. This event needs manpower.

[Pete G.]

I do not think the term "competition" is appropriate here.  Not that I am afraid of competition or am offended by it.  Competition makes the competitor better.  But when I am working on a gun that I suspect I will enter I am striving to achieve the level of gun-making proficiency the judges will deem appropriate for recognition.  I am striving to attain an ideal - not defeat some one else.  Therefore I prefer the term "judging" or "judges' evaluation" or "expert evaluation".

I couldn't agree more. If you want to compete, go the the range and shoot a match. Two totally different things. Artwork, which is what we really are talking about should be graded. To put in another context; if an English teacher assigns a theme with various topics to pick from and there is only one entry in a particular topic, is that theme given an "A"? Of course not. It is graded on it merits, regardless of the other entries.