French Fowler Question

[Keb]

I'm putting together a French gun and have a question about the mounting of the trigger guard.
It seems most were screwed on. I don't like putting a screw in the thin area in front of the bow. It seems it always breaks out in the ramrod hole. There is not a lot of room under there as it's very thin.

Which would be best?
1.Say to $#*! with it and pin the front? (This will hold the guard the best with the least effort.)
or
2. Say to $#*! with it and hide a nut under the ramrod hole and use a short machine screw?
or
3. Say to $#*! with it and use a shortened wood screw?

I also thought about tapping the breech bolster and using a machine screw but it's too close to the front of the trigger bow. I thought about pinning it on all 3 tabs but it's gonna take a screw to hold the thumbpiece on anyway.

The only books I have on French guns is The French Trade Gun of North America. :/

[Mike Brooks]

Only the de chasse guns had screws. The rest had pins. If I were building a de chasse I'd go with the screws.

[Keb]

Well, I'm not sure which it is. The de Chasse were iron mounted right? This is brass. Does that make it a fusil fin?
I don't parley voo Frenchie very good.

[Acer Saccharum]

I just saw a fine french fowler at Dixon's, engraved fine iron mounts, pinned at front of guard. Spanish barrel. A very fine gun.

[Longknife]

   I stand to be corrected but I think brass mounted would have been the norm.Very few if any Tvlle's had iron furniture. St.Etienne,different story. Not many of the latter came to North America. Some,but not many.IIRC

 Sorry Leatherbelly but I just got  the book "THE FRENCH TRADE GUN IN NORTH AMERICA". I have not had time to read it but it appears that most, (if not all) of the  "TULLE"  guns pictured are iron mounted. These are the guns that have the standard "tulle" guard with the swell at the front and are apparently attatched with three screws, two in the grip and one in the front finale.  The guns with the fancy finales are a mixture of iron and brass and seem to be  attatched with one pin in the finale and two screws in the grip, but some had three pins and I did observe one pictured with all screws. it seems that there is quite a bit of variance in the civilian guns...,,,,,Ed

[smart dog]

Hi Keb,
If you notice in the book on French trade guns, many of the guards with screws have the forward screw positioned right in front of the bow and directly underneath the breech plug of the barrel.  My guess is that the ramrod hole ends at the point where the plug threads begin leaving solid wood where the trigger guard screw is inserted.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I'm not sure which it is. The de Chasse were iron mounted right? This is brass. Does that make it a fusil fin?
I don't parley voo Frenchie very good.

Better study your book a bit more.....

[Keb]

But can't a fusil fin be a fusil de chasse? All this frenchie stuff confuses me.
fusil fin = fine gun?
fusil de chasse = hunting gun?
fusil fin de chasse = fine hunting gun?
fusil de trait = trade gun?
iron, brass, it's all confusing. I wish those Frenchie guys had the common courtesy to speak in English. Jeeze...

[Mike Brooks]

No such thing as a fusil fin de chasse. What does your furniture look like?

[gizamo]

Could do as you please, and call it a American  or New France restock...

Giz
 

[Keb]

I forgot to mention that gun Gladysz shows in his book is iron, not brass. So even though mine has a 4" to 9" too short barrel it also has brass, not iron. :/

[Keb]

Could do as you please, and call it a American  or New France restock...

Giz
 

There are some pictures in "The French Trade Gun in North America" of some French guns they figger were restocked in the colonies.

[Lucky R A]

     I have a quite early French gun in for restoration.  The stock architecture is similar to the Fusils already mentioned.  It is a quite slim light weight gun  and has a double line molding the full length of the top of the stock along the barrel.  The triggerguard is what one would expect on a fine French fowler, the sideplate is also atypical for a fowler.  All mountings are iron.  The triggerguard is mounted with pins front and rear.    At some point the stock was cut back at the front and a bayonet lug was brazed on.  A brass military musket front band is in place to further reinforce the front barrel pin.   The barrel was originally full octagon, but the corners are so worn that at first glance it appears to be round.  Unfortunately the original lock was replaced with an English round face lock and the gun was percussed.  Oh, it arrived with a very degraded load of black powder and shot.  The shot had nearly corroded away to nothing...

[Mike Brooks]

Keb, that's de chasse furniture. Needs to be screwed on. There were a few brass mounted de chasse made but none that we know of have survived.

[Keb]

Thanks for all the input, everyone. Is that thumb piece out of place? The one in that book has a heart shaped one but author figgers it was added later.

[alex e.]

While i do not consider myself the expert on French guns,i have been called an expert by an expert.So take it for what it is worth.
That lock is not French,its more Germanic than anything.contrary to the what the vendor that sells it says.i want to see the original.
The BP, TG& SP are of the DE CHasse style. And as Mike said they were made but we have no existing/known pieces.Bouchard's book makes a reference to brass trimmed  FDC's being sent to NF.
As to the RR pipes, most if not all were simple sheet metal pipes with i simple filed line at each end.Thumbpieces were not found on these guns,as were not turtle front sights and surface mounted buttplates.

keep in mind this was a gun made for the Dept of the Marine[Navy]modeled after military arms of the day[a sporterized verzion if you will]made for military use and to help arm the allied natives. It does not much follow the styles[artistically of civilian armsThe FDC does appear on a few tradelist/inventories.It actually is its own type of separate animal as far as French smoothbores go.

i hope this is of help.

Alex E.

[Vomitus]

   I stand to be corrected but I think brass mounted would have been the norm.Very few if any Tvlle's had iron furniture. St.Etienne,different story. Not many of the latter came to North America. Some,but not many.IIRC

Thanks guys.All these years I've thought wrong.Good grief. Back to the library.

[JDK]

There are at least 3 iron mounted Tvlles pictured in T.M. Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns and no

The fact that documents support that thousands of them were imported and that so few archaeological remains have been recovered indicates that most were iron mounted.  Brass mounts of other Trade Guns have been found  frequently in archaeological digs.

Theory is the iron mounts degraded and the brass resisted time better.  That and the fact that since these guns were not commonly traded to the Indians they did not see as wide a dissemination as the Trade Guns.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Keb]

Needs to be screwed on.

OK. If I mount with screws, would it be acceptable to use a machine screw in front with either a countersunk hidden nut or tapped directly into the breech plug. I've never had good luck using a wood screw under the ramrod channel. I've only got about 1/8" wood thickness under there. I don't think that's enough wood to hold a wood screw.

[Mike Brooks]

   I stand to be corrected but I think brass mounted would have been the norm.Very few if any Tvlle's had iron furniture. St.Etienne,different story. Not many of the latter came to North America. Some,but not many.IIRC

Thanks guys.All these years I've thought wrong.Good grief. Back to the library.

You still got it backwards brother, time to hit Gladyzs' book.

[Mike Brooks]

Needs to be screwed on.

OK. If I mount with screws, would it be acceptable to use a machine screw in front with either a countersunk hidden nut or tapped directly into the breech plug. I've never had good luck using a wood screw under the ramrod channel. I've only got about 1/8" wood thickness under there. I don't think that's enough wood to hold a wood screw.

I don't often build guns that require a screw in the front trigger guard finial, but when I do I use a really short screw or shorten a longer one. Just be care full not to strip it.

[alex e.]

Keb, On most  Fdc's  i have built there should be plenty of room for a wood screw.i'm betting your RR hole is drilled way past the breech. Drill and glue a wood plug where your screw is located. the screw should be located  just forward of the TG bow,pretty much underneath the breech end of the barrel.
i hope this makes some sense.

Alex.

[alex e.]

Kevin's book very well ducuments the use of iron and brass trimmed guns.You will probably do away with the terms "type C & type D" also.

AFWIW, I have built two brass trimmed FDC's.the one I'm working on now has iron trim.My barrel is profiled off an original ,Almost intact St. E barrel that i have.Its very close in dimensions to two Tulle barrels i own.

[JDK]

.....Drill and glue a wood plug where your screw is located.....

This is how I did the front trigger guard screw on the Southern gun I am working on now....in combination with a short, fat wood screw.  You should be fine.  Don't over think it, it worked on thousands of FDC's.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Vomitus]

  Boy, am I confused now!     I have a fusil de chasse parts set in all brass. !%##*K me!
I guess mine will be a Fusil de Roi! pissmeoff!  I need the Gladyzs book,whatever it's called.