Sun tanning a pouch or effects of the sun on your pouch- A 30 DAY UPDATE

[G. Elsenbeck]

In this case I experimented to 'color' a pouch using only the suns' rays, or sun-tanning.
Quite a while back I displayed my interpretation of the Lemuel Lyman shot pouch (belt pouch) as shown in "Clash of the Empires".  I dyed two and left one untouched and put aside.  
Then, as a result of attending two very informative seminars at Dixons conducted by Frank Willis (Finish of the Hunting Bag) and Jeff Bibb (Design of the Southern Bag) both had touched upon using the effect of the sun to 'add color' to your leather or bag.  When I got home I pulled this pouch out from my inventory and already noticed a color change in the pouch as it was only exposed 'indirect' light in the home.  To put this practice in place I then introduced the pouch to direct sunlight for 3 days, 3-4 hours at a time.  I then added a light coat of 100% pure neatsfoot oil and it immediately darkened even more and then dissipated as the oil dried.    It was put into the sunlight again yesterday to see if it would darken/tan more and this is the 'after' picture you see here.  A pretty contrast of color from its' beginning and this really doesn't take much time.  I haven't yet tried to use any other oil like olive oil to see if that has a darkening effect either.  Does it have to be extra virgin olive oil?  
I wonder if many of the original pouches were always 'dyed' or left to the elements to darken/age on its' own time.  Either way, the experiment continues.  
Gary

BEFORE:

AFTER:

[James Rogers]

This is a good topic Gary. I am a big fan of natural leather that has had a suntan and some oil. I think you will find natural leather was much used.
One big mistake I used to make though was to oil my leather prior to burnishing (actually I was doing little at burnishing at that time) and I was critiqued on that by Steve Lalioff back in the early nineties.
I have found as a general rule that a quality leather will usually take a tan and a burnish equally well. Add to that a light oiling and its a good look.
The flap on this pouch started out baby bottom pink and has just been wrinkled, suntanned and hard burnished with a little moisture present.

This before and after model is a good one.
As soon as I can get my pc back online I want to post some pics of my last pouch at a very light aging stage compared with the way it was delivered as ordered.

[Gun Butcher]

Gary, I have done a lot of western style leather work and one of my favorite dying methods involves homemade pecan dye and ,according to how dark the object needs to be, one or two coats of olive oil and a few days in the sun.
Most everyone agrees that it should be "extra virgin olive oil" to minimize the chance of the oil going rancid on your work.

Ron

[G. Elsenbeck]

James, the color contrast is very striking.  I like the effect.

Ron, thanks for the tip on the oil.

Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have a rig I am dong right know that I am baking in the sun with some oil aplied.  The effect is similar to what you achieved and I like it. 

Coryjoe

[James Rogers]

Coryjoe,
Show us when you get her all bronzed up.

As an aside and out of curiosity, where did the term "rig" come from in reference to a horn and pouch? I have seen it used before and wondered if it has any historical context or just modern terminology. Thanks
James

[Frank T.]

 Gary,glad to see you're trying some of the techniques from the seminars at Dixon's. Burnishing the leather will also impart a darker color. I do both on the bags I make. I like the more finished look of the leather after burnishing. Over a period of time the leather will turn a deep golden, honey brown if not stained.  I agree that many of the leather items made back in the day were not stained. This was an additional step that was not necessary, except for estethic appeal.
Frank Willis

[Jerry V Lape]

Please describe how you burnish leather?

[T.C.Albert]

I have always wondered if the old time oak/vat tan leathers were naturally a darker color right out of the vat...when you cut into thick old vintage harness leather its sometimes such a deep brownish red color all the way through that it makes me wonder if the old leathers were ever as pale as ours to begin with?
tca 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Frank, thank you and I look forward to spend some time with you down the road. 

Jerry, as opposed to burnishing only leather edges, this process is essentially the same, but with some noted exceptions.  First, the effect we're looking for is to add a bit of color and a smoothness to the leather.  I'm sure if I've forgotten something Frank will scold me later,  .  The biggest step is to 'moisten' your leather in a consistent method on the area you want to work on and the second biggest process is to 'rub' or 'burnish' your leather using ONLY a piece of genuine WOOL.  The wool will help extract the moisture while at the same time impart a smoothness to your leather AND a nice color as a result of the resulting heat friction.  Set it aside to ensure good dryness and you will be able to feel the difference and note the added richness it gives your leather piece.

Tim, I recall some time ago reading something about 'russian leather' and how it was valued for its beauty and durability, especially it's color.  Your comment regarding if the 'old leather way' produced a darker leather I'm inclined to agree with you.  As to the Russian leather I will leave you with this story, etc. 
 http://www.centurion-magazine.com/sections/post/sunken-leather.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/02/fashion/02bespoke.html


Gary

[James Rogers]

I have always wondered if the old time oak/vat tan leathers were naturally a darker color right out of the vat...when you cut into thick old vintage harness leather its sometimes such a deep brownish red color all the way through that it makes me wonder if the old leathers were ever as pale as ours to begin with?
tca 

Tim,

I have never tanned a cow or calf but my bark deer has always been similar to that reddish orange color you describe found in the old pieces. I have wondered the same thing myself.
Around home in the tanyards of the late 18th and 19th centuries, the vats were utilizing oak bark liquor.

[Dennis Glazener]

I am a novice with leather but I wonder if you smoked the pouch with smoke would it color it? The reason I ask is when we visited Explore Park (just off the Great Wagon Rd near Roanoke) that happened to be having militia days. There were a couple of guys smoking deer leather over a pit filled with wood "punk". I assume to tan it but I wondered then if you could take natural un-dyed leather and color it this way. I expect you would need to use something to moisturize it.  Intended to try it some day but that along with many other projects never materialized
Dennis

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Here is the pouch I was talking about above.



Coryjoe

[G. Elsenbeck]

The color is getting there.  What did you use for your patent?
Gary

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I used Neadsfoot Oil, I would rub a coat on and let it sit outside.  I put it in the bed of my truck which has a black liner in it and with the weather we have had it gets like an oven.  Notice how it bleaced my thread though!  I used natural colored wax linen thread and it made it white as snow. 

Coryjoe

[Horner75]

I am a novice with leather but I wonder if you smoked the pouch with smoke would it color it? The reason I ask is when we visited Explore Park (just off the Great Wagon Rd near Roanoke) that happened to be having militia days. There were a couple of guys smoking deer leather over a pit filled with wood "punk". I assume to tan it but I wondered then if you could take natural un-dyed leather and color it this way. I expect you would need to use something to moisturize it.  Intended to try it some day but that along with many other projects never materialized
Dennis

Dennis,
Years back, I have smoked deer skin after tanning to give it color and some say that it helps  moisture-proof (not water-proofs) the leather a little, but have never seen a big difference? __  I always liked using rotten punky cottonwood for smoking both sides or a deer hide and I have  even smoked that commercial buckskin that is orange to give it a better color. _____ I can't do much of that anymore from my wheelchair, so I haven't tried other leathers in recent times!

Rick

[G. Elsenbeck]

I am a novice with leather but I wonder if you smoked the pouch with smoke would it color it? The reason I ask is when we visited Explore Park (just off the Great Wagon Rd near Roanoke) that happened to be having militia days. There were a couple of guys smoking deer leather over a pit filled with wood "punk". I assume to tan it but I wondered then if you could take natural un-dyed leather and color it this way. I expect you would need to use something to moisturize it.  Intended to try it some day but that along with many other projects never materialized
Dennis

Dennis I will assume what those fellas were doing was to 'smoke' their 'brain tanned' leathers.  The purpose of that excercise was to introduce the resins coming from the smoke to penetrate the leather to keep it unaffected by future water soakings.  Otherwise just brain tanned leather without the smoking will get hard again after getting wet.  Aside from the chemical reaction between the leather and the smoke, the practice adds more color, certainly the smell of smoke and keeps the leather pliable for many years.. 

On the other hand and having NOT tried smoking veg tanned leather I can only imagine that introducing a piece to the smoking pit will surely add the smell akin you'd smell at a fire sale and maybe it will add some color, but will not make the leather pliable like braintanned leather.   Just an educated guess on my part, but I'll stay with the traditional methods for bark tanned or veg tanned leather working.   But was a good question Dennis and I hope I got the answer you were looking for.
gary

[RoaringBull]

Wlel I have a small pouch I am going to try the suntanning on, but I have a question to clarify something...oil it before or after putting out in the sun?

[G. Elsenbeck]

Wlel I have a small pouch I am going to try the suntanning on, but I have a question to clarify something...oil it before or after putting out in the sun?

I don't oil until I've got the color shade I want.  HOWEVER, if you still plan on staining or dye your project, DO NOT oil.   You can certainily moisten your leather pieces and then burnish them and still can put them in the sun.  I normally only leave mine out for about 4 - 5 hours until the shade takes over.  But even with 'indirect' light, the leather will darken, just not as fast. 
Have fun with your project, but this is as much a test of your patience as anything as this is a process that can take awhile.  Mine so far is about 7 days in the sun and still going, but I almost have the shade I want.

Gary

[RoaringBull]

Thanks! All the hot sun we have been having down here is Texas, it shouldn't take long at all.

Here's the little pouch...finally found some pinking irons and put one to work.


Hope this isn't highjacking the post...

[Elnathan]

I am a novice with leather but I wonder if you smoked the pouch with smoke would it color it? The reason I ask is when we visited Explore Park (just off the Great Wagon Rd near Roanoke) that happened to be having militia days. There were a couple of guys smoking deer leather over a pit filled with wood "punk". I assume to tan it but I wondered then if you could take natural un-dyed leather and color it this way. I expect you would need to use something to moisturize it.  Intended to try it some day but that along with many other projects never materialized
Dennis

Dennis,
Smoking is the last stage of brain-tanning leather, as it makes it waterproof. There is an actual chemical change in the skin, I believe. I have no idea what it would do to bark-tanned leather.

[G. Elsenbeck]

   

Dennis,
Smoking is the last stage of brain-tanning leather, as it makes it waterproof.

Elnathan, I don't believe that's a true statement.    You might want to check your source on this one as short of lining your braintanned pieces with gortex it will never be waterproof by just 'smoking'.

Gary

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis I will assume what those fellas were doing was to 'smoke' their 'brain tanned' leathers.  The purpose of that excercise was to introduce the resins coming from the smoke to penetrate the leather to keep it unaffected by future water soakings.  Otherwise just brain tanned leather without the smoking will get hard again after getting wet.  Aside from the chemical reaction between the leather and the smoke, the practice adds more color, certainly the smell of smoke and keeps the leather pliable for many years..

On the other hand and having NOT tried smoking veg tanned leather I can only imagine that introducing a piece to the smoking pit will surely add the smell akin you'd smell at a fire sale and maybe it will add some color, but will not make the leather pliable like braintanned leather.   Just an educated guess on my part, but I'll stay with the traditional methods for bark tanned or veg tanned leather working.   But was a good question Dennis and I hope I got the answer you were looking for.
gary

Thanks Gary I appreciate that. Leather work is one thing I have not done much with. It is on my bucket list though
Dennis

[Elnathan]

   

Dennis,
Smoking is the last stage of brain-tanning leather, as it makes it waterproof.

Elnathan, I don't believe that's a true statement.    You might want to check your source on this one as short of lining your braintanned pieces with gortex it will never be waterproof by just 'smoking'.

Gary

Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that it keeps the glue-stuff in the leather from getting wet and stiffening up, as unsmoked buckskins would. The buckskins are waterproofed in the sense that they themselves are unaffected by water.  They will still get wet and so will whatever is behind them, but they don't require re-softening afterwards.

[Artificer]

As an aside and out of curiosity, where did the term "rig" come from in reference to a horn and pouch? I have seen it used before and wondered if it has any historical context or just modern terminology. Thanks
James

James,

The terms “She has a nice rig” or “She is well rigged” refers to how a sailor would describe, in a complementary manner, a ship with sails that was well designed/set up and well taken care of by her crew.  Those terms go back to at least the 17th century and possibly/likely earlier.   I believe that is the origin of the term.  What I don’t have historic context for is how it transferred from a nautical term to use by a landsman and how early it would have done so.

Though this in not the Etymology you asked about, it shows the age of use of the erm "rigging" or "rigged."

"The phrase "jury rigged" has been in use since at least 1788.[1] However, the adjectival use of "jury" in the sense of makeshift or temporary dates from at least 1616, when it appeared in John Smith's A Description of New England.[1] It appeared again, in a similar passage, in Smith's more extensive The General History of Virginia, New-England, and the Summer Isles published in 1624"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_rig

Gus