Forearm too thick? (lock positioning)

[JohnTyg]

Finishing final shaping on my rifle.

Cut back the forearm molding to reveal 2/3rd of the ramrod and the forearm still looks way too heavy.

When I first positioned my lock (10 years ago) positioned the top of the bolster even with the midline of the barrel.  (Also think the web between the ramrod groove and barrel is too thick.)

I'd like to drop the top of the forearm down from midline of barrel but would have to slope front of lock bolster down some to meet it.

Is this a visually acceptable trick?

Thanks,

John T

[Lucky R A]

 John,
        Without actually seeing your gun it is hard to say if this is worthwile or not.   With that being said, I have seen a number of originals that had the front of the bolster of the lock extending above the line of the wood on the forearm.  I see no reason you could not slope the front of the bolster down 3/32 at the front and then lower and slim your forarm to match.   Only the nit pickers will ever notice.  So if it makes you feel better about the overall architecture of your gun, do it.

Ron

[Don Getz]

John........I can see no problem in sloping the top line of the forestock away from the lock, after all, we're only talking
about maybe 1/16", most likely not even that much.   If you don't point it out, most people won't even notice it......Don

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

The top line of your forestock does not have to be equal to the top of your bolster.. if you fudge down a little it may be enough ... or fudge down a little and do like Don says and slope the line of the forestock.

[Acer Saccharum]

In the below photo, the top of the barrel channel wood is almost 1/8 below the lock frizzen plateau, whatever you call the plane that the frizzen shuts on. I didn't change the lock, no bevel or ramp down to the wood. I looked at it when I built it, said uh-oh, and then totally forgot about it bothering me. In other words, I don't think it's a big deal to have the lock above the wood. Others may feel differently about it.

I wish I had a better photo to illustrate the step.

[smallpatch]

Most every Lehigh in the world is built that way Acer!!

[Acer Saccharum]

Oh. 

[Long John]

John,

A photo would be helpful.

We don't know excatly what extent of progress your are at.  But remember a couple of things:
  -  Rounding over the edges so they come to a fine edge at both the barrel and ramrod will make the stock appear thinner
  - Staining the stock to a dark color will make the stock appear less prominent, ie thinner.  (If you have a big butt wear dark pants.)

It might well be that you don't have a "problem"; that it is a visual thing that is an artifact of the degree of progress rather than actual design.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Acer Saccharum]

(If you have a big butt wear dark pants.)

John, it is absolutely true that the stain will make the fore end appear less prominent.


I also think that thin guns are a fad, like Barbie dolls made American men and women think that thin women are good, and ample or large women are not.

If your web is too thick, you can inlet the barrel deeper, but once your lock is in, your options diminish. Live with it, learn for the next gun.

Warning: this site promotes building guns, lots of them, they fill up the house, spill over into the neighbors gun closets. Be wary.

[JohnTyg]

After reading the comments took another look and its obvious I simply have the forearm slightly above midline, a little bit of wood seems to make a big difference, my nose cap is a single piece and comes up just above midline. Made it out of 1/16" brass so there is enough metal to bring it down a bit without exposing wood at the top.

Maybe this is a good time to get some architectural comments. First still a lot of wood on the rifle so room for changes or refinements.  Lock plates still a little large, will do the moldings and then slim down some, as above forearm still needs to be brought down. Wrist still thick.  Cheekpiece too long and will shorten from both ends, etc..

If it helps your comments, more about the stock.  My first effort was with a blank, band sawed through the lock plate after inletting barrel and butt plate. Moved to a complete pre-carve but tossed it (after gaining more inletting experience) because of too soft wood, loose barrel inlet and poor lock position.  Had another very hard grade 3 sugar maple plank from Tiger Hunt.  After speaking with Mr. Greensides at Pecatonica sent it out. Had it profiled to their Dickert pattern but left it un-inlet except for barrel channel and ramrod, also left it square from wrist forward.  This saved a little work as far as wood removal.  Only issues were loosing some of the references for keeping midline and had wished there was more wood in the cheekpiece area. There was still a enough wood in the but to make an individual statement.

I know there is a lot to improve on still but critical comments are appreciated.

John

[JohnTyg]

One more pic.
Just rained and too overcast to get detailed resolution but should give an idea of where I am at with this. (rifle resting and MGA 1600 hub, my only other bad habit)

[Long John]

That rifle is looking pretty good!  From what I can see you have real good fit.

Yes, you can take the top edge of the stock down some, but be careful - you have a fore-end cap installed and it jives with the top line of the stock pretty well.

The lower fore-end (the part you hold onto when carrying) is a little flat-sided.  Draw a pencil line from the nose of the lock flat , parallel with the top line of the stock out to the entry pipe.  Now start shaping the stock away from that line, toward the stock top line and toward the bottom line of the stock so the fore end is a little more circular in cross-section.  It never gets truly circular, closer to oval, but you don't want it to look like you just knocked the corners off a rectangle.  Just a little shaping and it will be OK.  When you stain it, it will look much better!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Bob Roller]

 It stands out like a goose egg in a bucket of coal. Looks good to me but then
I am not too judgemental unless I can do better and I can't. The comment about
the MGA hub reminded me I haven't seen one of the litlle "Not much good for
anything" English cars for years. I serviced the Nuffield line of cars in the early
1950's,MG,Morris,Riley as well as Lagonda and Jaguar XK120 and MK VII sedans
or "saloons" as they were called back then. also maintained a service for Auburn,
Cord and Duesenberg cars as well as other orphans like Pierce and Stutz and Marmon
V16. Those were the days!

Bob Roller

[Longknife]

John, You want MORE than half the flat of the barrel showing on the side flats.  A little trick I learned long ago to help thin out the forestock was to use a size smaller nose cap than what is required. If your barrel is say 7/8 at the muzzle, use a 13/16 cap, just open it up a little to fit the barrel. The overall size of the cap will be a bit smaller and let you take off more wood to slim 'er down...If you make your own caps then make one that is 1/16 to 1/8" smaller (or shorter in height on the sides) ...make sense?......Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

The grip should be oval in cross section. However, from the photo, it appears to be rectangular with rounded corners. It could be that the photo doesn't 'see' the form right, as often happens in photos.

The wood could be lower on the barrel flats, as mentioned before, but you have to re-do you nosecap. It depends how much you want to re-do on this gun, or do it differently on the next. Leaving the wood here it is won't kill the gun, by any means.

Nice clean, well thought out workmanship, John. You're doing a great job. I can see you are a real craftsman, and are taking to the longrifle very well.
Tom

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Very nice craftsmanship. The guys have given you great advice.  You will have a rifle to be very proud of!!

[JohnTyg]

Agree with pretty much all the above.  The rear part of the fore stock is too flat and will address that.

The more I look at it and with the above comments the top of the forearm needs to be brought down.  Acer, as you know I don't mind "do-overs" on this gun.  Not a big deal to modify or redo the nose cap.

The wrist is oval but not refined yet.  The lighting makes it look the way it does.

Thanks

[Acer Saccharum]

The lighting made me do it! 

I don't mind doing some things over, but at some point, my Irish says cut to the quick, man, it's good enow. And the German in me gives the Irishman a mighty blow, and does things right. Then the Irishman turns to whiskey to heal his wounds.

[rich pierce]

I think right now the wrist is a little diamond shaped, not rectangular.  Looks like it could be rounded more. The wrist can be diamond shaped depending on style but normally the diamond is not too sharp.  Or it might be perfectly rounded and the lighting makes it look like there's a bit of a ridge there.

This is where a concave scraper starts to tell the tale.  I rub pencil all over the wrist, just  lightly draw lines, and see where a concave scraper likes to "work".  One of those profiling fingery wire tools would help you see this also.  I think your molding on the fore-end is very well done but it might end a little abruptly for my taste.  I like to fade them a bit.  Again, this is just a preference and many originals differ.  Also the way the molding line terminates at the back end seems unusual for period work and you may want to work a scroll into it.

I'm nit-picking as it looks like a really strong build.

[Jim Kibler]

One thing I've started to do is shape a stock with carving in mind.  That is create a shape that minimizes background removal and creates nice carving shape when finished.  An example of this is shaping the wrist to a relatively severe diamond shape prior to carving.  It's a little hard to explain, but relieving for carving rounds things out considerably.  Another example of this is to slope the wood up towards the tail of the lock panels so the tab can be formed without too wood removal back the wrist.  If you've not done much of this work, this description probably won't make much sense.

[JohnTyg]

Rich,

The for-end molding does end a little abruptly and I do plan to refine that, also the end of the molding at the rear ramrod pipe was intentionally left unfinished until I resolve the other issues. Plan a scroll terminating in a volute.

Just picked up a scraper with a concave end.  Now I know what to use it for.  Couldn't figure out how you guys get your wrists to look so nice.

I think I picked a good point to get advice, probably enough wood there to address these suggestions.

My humble thanks!

John

[JohnTyg]

Jim,

Just caught your post.

I can visualize much of what you described.  I knew that the wrist did not have that smooth rounded appearance I wanted and was focusing on bringing the lock panels down to size.  Was keeping my fingers crossed that when I relieved the wood on the wrist "into" the lock panel moldings this would help establish the look on the rifles I see here.  I like the idea of the concave scraper as well but will establish the lock panels first and work from there.

I thought I was done when everything was inlet, Then I discovered this site!

John

[JohnTyg]

Acre,

In retrospect it's not just the light, you are right!  It is somewhat triangular, about the profile of the "Krell" doorway in forbidden  Planet.

[Acer Saccharum]

I think this is what Jim is talking about.
In the first pic, the wood sweeps away from the tail of the lock into the wrist. The lock panels and beaver tails will be relieved into this swept wood, with very little of the stock being removed.





Then the tails, and lock surround is cut in and relieved, but the stock FORM is changed very very little.

[JohnTyg]

Acer,

Very informative pics and reply.

Thanks