Author Topic: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade  (Read 9512 times)

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« on: August 18, 2012, 05:58:41 PM »
Folks, the deeper I get into researching British 18th century military flintlocks, (Muskets, Carbines and Pistols) the more I get nagging questions about the Balustrade or Band around the very end of the breech and just in front of the breech plug. 

I don’t believe I have ever had the barrel off an original British Musket, Carbine or Pistol; though I have been fortunate to be able to otherwise examine in detail a couple original P1756 Muskets and one P1778/81 Carbine.  I have taken the barrels off a Navy Arms Brown Bess “Carbine,” a Pedersoli P1756 musket and a Navy Arms P1738 pistol; but I know you shouldn’t use reproductions to explain or investigate original features.

Most of the books refer to this as a kind of reinforcement for the breech and that seems to suggest it was made to strengthen the breech.  Well, that confuses me.  It seems the balustrade was only filed on the top surface of the barrel and goes down to the flats on each side (under the wood on the left and against the lock on the right) and then rounded on the bottom.  Unless I’m mistaken, and I most certainly could be, that means the rear of the barrel is shaped something like a standing oval with flat sides?  Or, is the barrel larger in diameter on top originally and then they ground down the sides and bottom rounded surface? 

What I have in my head is there basically was lump of metal left on top of the barrel and filed down to the decorative balustrade?  I really don’t understand how that could be called “reinforcement” when the larger diameter is really only on the top of the barrel? 

Period artillery/cannon barrels have a ring around the breech for reinforcement, but those rings go all the way around the breech – so I can see how they act as reinforcement.

So I guess my question/s about the breech balustrade on military arms are:

1.  Did it have any real value for breech reinforcement?

2.  Was it meant more as an optical illusion or a sort of placebo to make the breech look stronger similar to a cannon barrel?

3.  Was it merely decoration? 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Gus

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7014
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 07:33:20 PM »
Hi Gus,
You raise an interesting question.  I had the privilege of taking apart one original Brown Bess musket years ago.  It was a pre-India model so it could have been of Rev War vintage.  The baluster breech molding was only on the top surface. I don't remember if the actual barrel wall thickness was greater on top than the bottom or equal.  Nonetheless, I seriously doubt that it served to reinforce the breech because it is directly over the breech plug.  The gunmakers left plenty of barrel wall for the breech threads all the way round so exactly how would the molding really accomplish anything other than add decoration?  Reinforcement would be better around the actual powder chamber not the plug.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 07:44:18 PM »
  Reinforcement would be better around the actual powder chamber not the plug.
dave

Dave,

That is a great point I should have thought about myself.  It was a "Well, DUH, Gus" moment for me as I read it.  Grin.   Thank you for pointing it out.

Gus


Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 10:09:10 PM »
Quote
3.  Was it merely decoration
Ding, ding , ding, ding. Correctamundo! ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

hammer

  • Guest
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 10:54:35 PM »
Artificer, as I remember it, Harding, in his 'Small arms of the East India Company', believed it may originally have been manufactured higher than would be required and then filed down to a suitable height to 'zero-in' the musket before it left the workshop.    Just as we today would file down a rifle rear sight.   


Peter.

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 10:57:00 PM »
This from a small carbine, or coach gun. While not military, it is surely influenced by the Bess. Barrel is flattened slightly on both sides, with filed baluster over the top. Bottom of barrel is smooth round.

Peter, there is a groove in the tang, that continues into the baluster rings. I have a hard time believing that this groove would have been useful for any purpose other than aiding the pointing in a general direction.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:59:21 PM by Acer Saccharum »
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7014
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 11:26:38 PM »
Hi Tom, Peter, Mike, and Gus,
Just pure speculation, but could Peter be right?  The height of the "hump" by affecting the view of the front sight (ramrod stud) might allow a crude elevation adjustment.  During the days of linear tactics, elevation might be the only sighting criteria required because you want the wall of musket balls to carry far enough to hit at least one of the enemy's ranks but not over their heads.  You don't care about individual windage because you have a long line of soldiers firing at once that will cover the horizontal spread of the enemy.

dave
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 11:27:19 PM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 04:30:28 AM »
I really don't know of what I write here but I recall a discussion in a class taught by Jim Kibler and Ian Pratt about fowler construction with the breech end of the barrel being thinned out on the lower portion for some reason dealing with proper lines and construction.  Be interesting to hear from Jim whether this reinforcement might be the remnant of similar construction with the large barrel dimensions on a Brown Bess. 

Offline BillPac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
  • N. Ohio
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 05:24:08 AM »
Here is a picture of the breech end of the barrel that Jerry was talking about (from Jim and Ian's class)





Here is how we shaped the new barrel.  This was an English Fowler not a military piece.  BillP


Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 05:43:23 AM »
Artificer, as I remember it, Harding, in his 'Small arms of the East India Company', believed it may originally have been manufactured higher than would be required and then filed down to a suitable height to 'zero-in' the musket before it left the workshop.    Just as we today would file down a rifle rear sight.   
Peter.

Peter,

I shot a Navy Arms Brown Bess “Carbine” for many years in NMLRA Northwest Trade Gun matches and did not even consider that possibility.  

Now that you have mentioned it, I recall at least one of the (I think) P1742 pattern Besses (shown in Dr. DeWitt Bailey’s and other books) where the tang seems to be almost ungainly high.  (Will have to dig through a couple of these books for the page and illustration number.)  I thought it was due to the greater drop of that pattern stock or perhaps the rear end of the “banana” lockplate was inletted lower than normal on that gun.  Your information offers another explanation.  

I do know that period British Drill Manuals of the 1st half of the 18th century instructed soldiers to turn their faces to the right when pulling the trigger to ensure they did not get the flash of the pan in their eyes from the soldier’s musket on their immediate left.  However, during the French and Indian War here, much attention was paid to soldiers actually aiming their muskets and not looking away when firing.  

Thank you for the added information.
Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 05:44:49 AM »
This from a small carbine, or coach gun. While not military, it is surely influenced by the Bess. Barrel is flattened slightly on both sides, with filed baluster over the top. Bottom of barrel is smooth round.


Fabulous photograph,  Thank you very much.
Gus
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 05:45:33 AM by Artificer »

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 06:03:23 AM »
Hi Tom, Peter, Mike, and Gus,
Just pure speculation, but could Peter be right?  The height of the "hump" by affecting the view of the front sight (ramrod stud) might allow a crude elevation adjustment.  During the days of linear tactics, elevation might be the only sighting criteria required because you want the wall of musket balls to carry far enough to hit at least one of the enemy's ranks but not over their heads.  You don't care about individual windage because you have a long line of soldiers firing at once that will cover the horizontal spread of the enemy.

dave

Dave,

That is an excellent point.  I think there may be a tendency to go overboard on how “inaccurate” the smoothbore musket was to the point some people today get the idea that it was almost impossible to hit an opposing force.

I realize a .69 caliber ball loaded in a paper cartridge and in a bore that sized .75 to almost .80 was woefully inaccurate by the standards of a rifle of the day or even a more tightly wadded trade gun, but had they not hit much of anything, they would never have gone to the musket.  For many years now, the Battlesight Zero is taken from sight settings from the 300 yard line.  Perhaps they figured the Battlesight Zero to be 80 or at most 100 yards and set the muskets up for that general distance?

Something that sort of goes along with the theory is 18th century socket bayonets tend to be very similar in the ring and height of the notch that passes over the sight to affix the bayonet.  It would seem they tried to standardize the front sight (of course to a lesser precision than we may think) and perhaps that led to the height of the breech being modified so as to give an effective 80 or 100 yard BZO?

Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 06:10:24 AM »
Here is a picture of the breech end of the barrel that Jerry was talking about (from Jim and Ian's class)

Like Acer's photograph, I REALLY appreciate the photo's and especially the top one showing the rear of the original barrel.  I found the witness marks, made by a cold chisel on each side, to be especially intriguing.  Having such a mark on each side would make it MUCH easier to pull the breech plug and then return it to as exact as possible the same spot.  Thank you.
Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 06:23:38 AM »
Quote
3.  Was it merely decoration
Ding, ding , ding, ding. Correctamundo! ;D

Grin.  Thanks.
Gus

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7014
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 07:11:32 AM »
Hi Gus,
What does battlesight zero mean?  This is a new term to me and I would like to understand it.

Thank you,

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 05:25:32 PM »
This from a small carbine, or coach gun. While not military, it is surely influenced by the Bess. Barrel is flattened slightly on both sides, with filed baluster over the top. Bottom of barrel is smooth round.


Fabulous photograph,  Thank you very much.
Gus
You'll notice from this photo that the decoration is filed in, no extra material was added. The rings actually weaken the area rather than reenforce. Not that it makes any difference.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

hammer

  • Guest
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 01:29:36 AM »
About that Brown Bess accuracy and 'sighting-in'. 

I know a little about infantry tactics but have only shot a BB a few times so I am no practical expert. 
Certainly infantry in the Line would have just levelled their muskets at the opposing line at up to 100 yards and let fly.  Where action was not against a massed target, such as with skirmishers who would operate out front and attempt to pick off individual officers or artillery crews and generally disrupt the opposition then there was the need to take advantage of the BBs inherent quite good accuracy.  The Light and Grenadier companies of Line Infantry had the standard BB and would act as skirmishers as part of their job spec.   Light infantry had a simple rear sight brazed on.   It might take more than one guy shooting at a target to get a hit but it was effective - French junior officers in Spain didn't live long.   
According to Harding in his 'Small arms of the East India Company' the troops, at least in India, practised individual shooting offhand up to 200 yards at targets 6 feet by 2 feet divided into 3 sections and he gives the results.  I haven't a note of them but I recall they were surpisingly good.   And he found the paper cartridge gave excellent results with the crushed empty tube beneath the ball forming a good deep wad.  Competition shooters today use 1/2 - 3/4 inch vegetable fibre lubed wads and a patch to get the same (or better?) results.  Together with Swiss No. 2 powder, the closest to the original high quality Waltham Abbey product. 

None of this, of course, helps with the balluster at the breech so please forgive me for going on a bit.   

If you ever get a chance to get your hands on Harding's 4 volumes don't pass it up.  They are a gold mine of useful info for everything from the earliest muskets and pistols through to the Baker rifle and the end of the flint era.  And all taken directly from the pukka EIC archives in London.   

Peter.   
 

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 05:23:14 AM »
Hi Gus,
What does battlesight zero mean?  This is a new term to me and I would like to understand it.

Thank you,

dave

Dave,

Today a battlesight zero means the sight settings from the 300 yard prone, slow fire position and you set your sights to that combination of windage and elevation adjustments and LEAVE the sights on that setting for most combat firing.  If the enemy is real close, you aim LOW on his torso or body.  If the enemy looks further away than 300 yards, you aim at his head or even above his head.  If the enemy is between those ranges, you aim at the center of his torso. ( BTW, the 300 yard Battlesight Zero or “BZO” was begun during the UnCivil War with rifled muskets.)  The front sights were so short compared to where the bullet hit high above it at short ranges, that those period soldiers had to aim at the knees to the thighs of an enemy at under 100 yards.  While BZO does have the sight setting for “windage,” this does not mean BZO has anything to do with figuring in the effects of the wind.  It simply means where the bullet is centered “left to right” on the aiming point.

A take off on this used by some hunters today is what is sometimes called “Maximum Point Blank Range.”  MPBR is the range at which the bullet drops x inches below line of sight after having risen no more than that same x inches above the line of sight – from the same sight setting and point of aim.  For deer, it's fairly well accepted that the vital area is actually an oval about 6" in height. You sight in your rifle to never be more than 3" high than the center of this oval and the 'maximum point blank range' of the round will be the spot at which the round dips 3" below the center of the oval. This allows you to hold dead on the center of the vital area of the deer and not worry about having to hold over or under at different ranges.  What this also means is you don’t have to try to do mental calculations while trying to shoot at a target.  As long as the deer is not beyond your MPBR, you just aim center of the vital area you want to hit and shoot. 

I would not be surprised at all that this is basically how hunters and other Longrifle shooters used their sights during the Flintlock Rifle period as well, for most of their shooting.  They would have perhaps set their sights for it or at least known how far they could shoot before they had to raise their sights to account for bullet drop.  Yes, they could have loaded lighter for short ranges and perhaps loaded a little more powder at long range, IF that did not cause the groups to enlarge too much. 

It has been over 30 years since I frequently fired patched .735” round balls in my Flintlock Brown Bess Carbine and I don’t remember how much drop there is at 100 yards.  I THINK it was something like 4 or 5 inches, but memory fails me.  I never fired the “period” paper cartridges with the “period correct” .69 caliber balls they used in the Brown Bess.  I am not sure, but I would think the drop would be more? 

There are numerous accounts about the effective range of Military Muskets was between 60 to 80 yards, depending on the account and figuring effective range was not concerned if you hit the soldier you aimed at or the soldier next to him or even perhaps two soldiers down the line on either side.  I don’t know at what point soldiers were taught to aim at on the body of an enemy soldier WHEN they finally actually were taught to aim and in the British Army that was in the 1750’s/during the French and Indian War.  Then there is the problem that many accounts during the Revolutionary War state that opposing forces lined up about 100 yards between the lines of opposing soldiers.  If the effective range was ONLY 60 to 80 yards, was this done deliberately OUTSIDE the enemy’s effective range and firepower was more for psychological effect?   Finally, there is a last thing to consider and that was the fact they LOVED firing by Volley.  Well, when you do that and to have a good/crisp volley, everyone has to JERK the trigger so most of the muskets go off at the same time.  When you jerk a trigger, you normally shoot above where you mean to shoot and often they shot right over the heads of opposing forces as was so often noted during the UnCivil War.  (This is also why Southern Forces fired more “Fire by File” that allowed for more accurate aim.)

I would love to get my hands on some truly exact and new made replication of period powder, though that is pretty much out of the question.  With that, I would make paper cartridges out of the closest paper I could find to 18th century paper and .69 caliber balls.  Then actually shoot at some man sized targets from 30 yards out to 100 yards to see what kind of drop there was with a center of the torso point of aim.  Maybe their point of aim at 100 was the head and at closer range the point of aim was the center of the torso?  I don’t know and would love to see it written down in a period piece of writing. 

Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2012, 07:03:06 PM »
You'll notice from this photo that the decoration is filed in, no extra material was added. The rings actually weaken the area rather than reenforce. Not that it makes any difference.

Mike, That was a very astute observation about the portion of the balustrade that is filed below the surrounding surface.   Fortunately, some of the newer books on Military Muskets have closer photographs of the balustrade and that is something I will make a point to look for.  Thank you.
Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2012, 07:30:58 PM »
.  The Light and Grenadier companies of Line Infantry had the standard BB and would act as skirmishers as part of their job spec.   Light infantry had a simple rear sight brazed on.   
  

If you ever get a chance to get your hands on Harding's 4 volumes don't pass it up. 
Peter.   

I really appreciate the information on David Harding's Books as I was completely unaware of them.  I'm rather surprised a couple of the British Shooters at the World Championships at Wedgnock, UK did not mention them in either '96 or '98 when I was there.  I was trying to "mine" all the information on British Military and Civilian flintlock guns I could while there both times.  I found the website, but Volumes I and II are sold out.  Will have to research more on finding them. 

I was fascinated by your note about brazing on a simple rear sight for the Light Infantry.  That is something else I have never run across before.  Do you know if the rear sight was brazed to the barrel or to the top of the breech plug?  Oh, was this done in the 18th or 19th century?

Thanks so much,
Gus

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2012, 09:35:23 PM »
Gus,

I have had the experience of firing a repro long land musket I made a while back.  Loading and firing 20 rounds as fast as I could, the really difficult thing was how to hold the thing without burning your hands - a really very hot barrel after so many shots.  Ouch for sure.

Jim

hammer

  • Guest
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2012, 11:22:35 PM »
Gus, can't say why the UK guys didn't mention these volumes.  Maybe they just hadn't heard of them.  These are very rare beasts.   I think they were a very expensive private print run.   Now long out of print, exceedingly rare and as much as £500 to buy if they come up for sale.   That is a lot of $$$$$.    But what a find.   I managed to borrow them through my local library and there are only a couple of copies available for loan in the whole of the UK. 

I think the rear sight on the Light Infantry BB was fitted on the breech, a little in front of the balluster.   The Light Infantry BB was a lighter, slimmed down version of the standard arm.

Again, nothing to do with the balluster. 


Peter.
So much to learn and so little time.

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2012, 06:24:11 AM »
Gus,

I have had the experience of firing a repro long land musket I made a while back.  Loading and firing 20 rounds as fast as I could, the really difficult thing was how to hold the thing without burning your hands - a really very hot barrel after so many shots.  Ouch for sure.

Jim

About 5 or 6 years ago, we did an 18th century battle demonstration right in front of the National Archives in DC on the 4th of July.  Temperature was above 100 and the temperature of the asphalt on Constitution Avenue, where we did the event, was something like 120 degrees.  For a change, they allowed us Highlanders to do the “Highland Drill,” which basically is a type of skirmish formation.  After firing, you put one knee down and loaded the Brown Bess from the kneeling position.  Well, I only made the mistake ONCE of putting my bare knee down on the pavement as it burned skin off between my Plaid Hose and Philabeg (Short Kilt).  After that, I just squatted down.  Grin. 

Reenactors fire blank rounds MUCH faster and more often than real rounds were normally fired in period battles.   I was thankful for the rudimentary “grip” or swell of the stock around the ramrod entry pipe as the only way to hold onto the Bess because the barrel was so hot it burnt patches of skin from my left hand in 6 or 7 places on to the barrel.  (Very hard to clean burnt skin off a barrel.)  I confess I had never quite appreciated the swell of the stock as much as I did that day.

Funny thing even Reenactors don’t appreciate is that though we were actually not out there in the direct sun that long, the water in our wool covered canteens got pretty hot. 

I had a WHOLE new appreciation for the Revolutionary War Battle of Monmouth after that. 
Gus

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Question on Military Flint Barrel Breech Balustrade
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2012, 06:27:09 AM »
Peter,

Thank you for the additional information.

Gus