Author Topic: Hawken style trigger guard. (Read 12016 times)

docone · « **on:** August 20, 2012, 03:30:38 AM »

Here is a question,
On the Hawken style trigger guards, there is usually a 1/4-28 machine screw cast into the trigger guard.
Is this, threads cleaned up, threaded into the trigger, or is it drilled and an nut applied.
The first one I did, years ago, I got confused, cut off the cast threads, and brazed it to the triggerplate.
Needless to say, it was not removeable without major work.
How is this done?

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2012, 04:32:51 AM »

Trigger plate gets drilled and tapped and inlet. The guard stud screws into the plate. You gotta install the guard by spinning the guard around until it bottoms out, and when the tail lines up at the buttstock inlet, put a screw thru the tail to lock it down.

mountainman70 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2012, 04:40:14 AM »

Hi Hawken fan;I like em too.Dave here in Wva.I have seen this job done several different ways,including the brazed on like you did.The latest hawkens I have built,and had built,were done in this fashion-the stud threaded for whatever die works-mostly 10-24 or 32,then the guard located on the triggerplate as is sufficient to get gloved finger into guard.Then location marked,center punched,on trig plate,drilled out for the 10-? tap,and fitted in this way.You can then locate the rear screw,and drill,tap,and fit rear of guard.Others on here will be along with better info,and some links.Good luck.BTW,do you still have the hawken you brazed guard onto?I bought one built in 60s a couple years ago,from Nebraska and it had guard brazed on..best regards,Dave

docone · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2012, 04:49:13 AM »

I wish I did. The rifle got appropriated by someone who apparently needed more than me.
It had a brazed trigger guard, drum, the underrib was also brazed rather than blind riveted. All steel furniture.
I had finished the stock with Tru-Oil and it was bright smooth.
Thanks for the info.
Hope someone got some use out of it.
The rifle was a lefty.

Herb · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2012, 06:10:31 AM »

I have done maybe a dozen or 15 of them, and there are several ways the trigger guard attaches to the trigger plate. Track's catalog shows three, the first one has cast 1/4-20 threads (it says- but then shows 1/4-28 tap drill and taper tap items you can order). The second one has a stud you have to thread 1/4-28. The third one you have to thread 10-32. Whichever, you locate the stud hole forward of the front trigger and drill a hole at an angle that matches the stud with the guard in place on the trigger plate and tap it for your threads. I locate the double set trigger as far to the rear in the bow as I can for more finger room. Fit it with the rear trigger set. TG-Hawk-L-I is best for this, it has a shorter bow and therefore a little more room forward of the bow for the tang bolt to be drilled into the thick part of the trigger plate, without hitting the curve where the front thins down. I cut the threads with a needle file all the way to the base of the stud. When you turn it in, it may not come to a stop aligned to the rear. Then I countersink the hole in the trigger plate enough that the guard will index to the rear.

A Green River Rifle Works gunsmith told me he did this, then soldered the stud in place. I would not do that. Another way to fit the guard to the plate is to cut the stud off, drill a hole for a 10-32 flathead screw down through the plate and into the trigger guard. But the threaded post is probably more traditional, if that is important.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2012, 02:40:30 PM »

You MUST set the rear trigger before locating the hole in the trigger
bar.If you don't,you might be in for a not so funny surprise when the
rear trigger is pulled back to "set" position. It won't work.

Bob Roller

docone · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2012, 08:12:59 PM »

Being as there appears to be several Hawken builders here, at least if I get in a corner I can get advice. Thats good.
Next question,
I am looking at making a conversion. In other words a Flinter barrel with a percussion lock.
In terms of reliability, would I go with a drum or patent breech.
With a drum, do I put the nipple in the hooked part, or just past the threads in the barrel?
That makes me wonder on that.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2012, 11:00:00 PM »

I would think that as a new work,the drum would be JUST forward of the breech plug threads.
The thing that will make it look like a conversion is the lock if it is tricked up to look like a converted
flintlock.The L&R Ashmore would be the ideal plate for this.

Bob Roller

docone · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2012, 11:17:50 PM »

Bob,
I have been going around and around on this.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-16-3
This is the breechplug that goes with the flint rifle. My thoughts would be to merely use a drum rather than a liner.
My quandry is,
Is there a Knox breech in this plug? I can go with just a threaded and hooked plug, make a divot on the face and thread in a drum. That would eliminate the 1" the first plug has extra.
That would be this unit.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FHG-16-3
Much simpler as it could easily be built like a flinter with a drum instead. I am used to that. I do not know what the first plug has for a chamber if any.
My quandry is the stock is a precarve. Length to the drum is pre ordained, I believe.

Rolf · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2012, 12:10:53 AM »

If you are building a percussion Hawken, why not use one of these breech plugs?

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/664/1

Just curiouse, since a Hawkens is one of the rifles on my wish list.

Best regards
Rolf

docone · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2012, 12:19:23 AM »

My wife's great grandfather had one on the Oregon Trail.
He had a converted flinter, full stock.
If I were just building one, I would go with a patent breech.
The breech I am looking at is the one on the Lower left of the page.

Herb · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2012, 02:43:31 AM »

In Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III, Western U.S." there are color photos of a Hawken on page 365 of a similar rifle. The caption reads "Full stock (cut to half), percussion plains rifle, barrel marked J&S Hawken, heavily used and repaired, owned by James Dunn who was a wagon master on the Oregon Trail. Author's collection." There is a solid plug, no hooked breech. to convert to caplock, a hole was drilled in the diagonal flat and a nipple was screwed into that. The hammer had to be bent a little to hit it. So if this is your case, get a solid plug. Track's part is Plug-BT-16-3. If this is the rifle you are copying and you don't have photos of it, PM me and I can send them to you. The original rifle is in Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, NM, I have seen it.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2012, 02:49:09 AM »

The FH-16-3 looks like it can be drilled out for a Nock system. I make my own breech plugs on the rare
occasions I make a rifle. I know little to nothing about precarved stocks so measurements will have to be
made to see what goes where.The problem with cast plugs is the thread length can be too short which is
no good or too long which can be remedied with careful cutting and measuring. That is why I make them as needed
so to get the right length.My one inch 58 caliber flintlock rifle had a Nock style breech with a .358 flash channel and
it went off like a center fire.A special cleaning attachment for the rod must be made to get into that smaller bore in the breech
plug.All of this is easy if you have a machine shop or access to one but can be a real pain otherwise.

Bob Roller

Herb · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2012, 06:23:02 AM »

For my .58 flintlock with Track's Hawken Flint Hooked Breech & Tang (#Plug-FH-16-3). Came with a .360 x 1 inch powder chamber, powder bridging caused much trouble, especially with Swiss 1 1/2 powder. I finally drilled it out to .440 and that cured the problem. The .58 cleaning jag below is drilled and tapped 10x32 in the center with a .40 caliber cleaning jag threaded into it. The long patch cleans the powder chamber and the .58 jag keeps it in place and pulls it back out of the barrel.

The rifle I think docone is discussing has a solid breech plug. A hole was drilled in the diagonal flat and a nipple screwed into that. It is in front of what is probably a .5 inch breech plug. The lock is similar to Track's Jim Bridger Hawken, cut for a snail, though there is no snail or powder drum in the barrel!

docone · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2012, 03:51:51 PM »

You guys are really helping!
I appreciate it!
The closer I get, the more exciting it gets.
Thanks
I am wondering though,
With the plut that is octagonal, then threaded such as the one you showed, is the drum put into the threaded area rather than in front of it.
Drilling it out does make sense. If I had a .32, that cavity would work, but it will be a .50, as his was .52.
The difficulty is I will probably be starting with a precarve for a flinter.
Being a lefty has its issues.

Herb · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2012, 07:19:40 PM »

I just took pictures of the rifle in Gordon's book, plus four of my trigger guards. Got to drive up to Red Canyon Lodge for lunch and wine with my wife and a friend, will get the photos to you later today. Trigger guards I'll post on here.

docone · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2012, 07:51:13 PM »

Herb,
Thanks.
Good trip, be safe.
I appreciate it.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2012, 08:38:16 PM »

I tried this breech design on a rifle. Was fast, but faster than a flat breech? I couldn't tell you. Certainly slower to clean.

But if I loaded without powder, the ball would stop at the shoulder, leaving lots of room to trickle powder in behind the ball.

This was a .54 with a 3/8 powder chamber.

docone · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2012, 08:48:13 PM »

Tom, a picture is worth a thousand words!
That helps.
The breech I was looking at had 1" of octagonal, and then threads. Looking at the drawing, I think I understand it. Not that complicated.
Thanks.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2012, 09:20:33 PM »

I have gone completely over to the dark side....flat faced breech plugs. No more 'school of hard Nocks' for me.

Herb · « **Reply #20 on:** August 23, 2012, 02:46:29 AM »

The rifle I am talking about is the third from the bottom hanging on the posts with the muzzle cutting the picture at right in half. Will PM you photos from Gordon's book later, docone.

Herb · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2012, 06:43:57 AM »

Photos E-mailed to docone. Here are some trigger guards. Top one is a set of Cherry Corner triggers I fitted a Hawken guard to. Notice the shorter bow. Bottom was from the Green River Rifle Works. Can't remember if I fitted it. Triggers should be farther to rear.

On the top one, notice where my tang bolt is drilled. The GRRW will have the tang bolt drilled into that curve.

A .54 caplock Hawken I built, couple thousand rounds through this now.

My .58 fullstock flint Hawken with a flat-to-the-wrist guard.

Herb · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2012, 07:08:39 AM »

On that GRRW trigger guard, I think I fitted it, and it had to go where it is, or the front stud would have crowded the tang hole even more. This gave me the best balance of front finger room and room for the tang bolt hole. A shorter bow would have helped give more room for the tang bolt.

docone · « **Reply #23 on:** August 23, 2012, 03:33:20 PM »

Herb, You be in Hawken Heaven!
Very interesting rifles there. Lots of variations.
Thanks.

docone · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2012, 01:58:48 AM »

In relooking at the lower triggers, the mistake I have always made, is to thread the tang bolt through the trigger plate, and the guard.
Never thought of doing them seperately.
Duh.
Lots of info here.
Thanks

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Author Topic: Hawken style trigger guard. (Read 12016 times)

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